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Sadiq Khan to make face masks a condition of carriage

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yorkie

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Face coverings must be worn on London's transport network despite restrictions easing on 19 July, London's mayor says.
Sadiq Khan said he was not prepared to put Tube, tram and other transport users at risk by relaxing the rules on face coverings.
What nonsense; someone not wearing a flimsy mask puts no-one at risk.

But what happens on journeys such as:
  • Harrow on the Hill to Amersham (Chiltern)
  • Bushey to Harrow & Wealdstone (WMT)
  • Upminster to West Ham (c2c)
  • Kentish Town to Blackfriars (GTR)

TfL will not be able to require masks at any point in any of the above journeys, surely?

I doubt Sadiq Khan has the intelligence or knowledge to realise what he is trying to mandate.
 
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Horizon22

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But what happens on journeys such as:
  • Harrow on the Hill to Amersham (Chiltern)
  • Bushey to Harrow & Wealdstone (WMT)
  • Upminster to West Ham (c2c)
  • Kentish Town to Blackfriars (GTR)

TfL will not be able to require masks at any point in any of the above journeys, surely?

I doubt Sadiq Khan has the intelligence or knowledge to realise what he is trying to mandate.

You can include GWR and GA services for TfL Rail too. And Southern for the Overground. Some stations are served by both but managed by one or the other. A very convoluted process, although isn't a lot of the railway already! This was always going to be a problem when "London" was going to mandate something where there are significant crossovers, interchanges and duplication.
 

Watershed

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You can include GWR and GA services for TfL Rail too. And Southern for the Overground. Some stations are served by both but managed by one or the other. A very convoluted process, although isn't a lot of the railway already! This was always going to be a problem when "London" was going to mandate something where there are significant crossovers, interchanges and duplication.
What a farce it will be at places like Shenfield and Stratford. "The next train to London is a TfL Rail service, you must wear a face covering to board this service". Will those who don't want to wear a face covering be able to ignore TfL Rail services when claiming Delay Repay?

Are TfL seriously going to try and enforce it at, say, Shepherd's Bush? Surely people will just wise up and say "yeah, I'm catching a Southern service".

This is utterly pathetic political gameplaying. I'd expect nothing less from Khan.

The real 'proof of the pudding' will be in how many people wear face coverings on National Rail vs TfL services, and how the usage of each of the two recovers.
 

Horizon22

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What a farce it will be at places like Shenfield and Stratford. "The next train to London is a TfL Rail service, you must wear a face covering to board this service". Will those who don't want to wear a face covering be able to ignore TfL Rail services when claiming Delay Repay?

Are TfL seriously going to try and enforce it at, say, Shepherd's Bush? Surely people will just wise up and say "yeah, I'm catching a Southern service".

This is utterly pathetic political gameplaying. I'd expect nothing less from Khan.

The real 'proof of the pudding' will be in how many people wear face coverings on National Rail vs TfL services, and how the usage of each of the two recovers.

Take places like Ealing Broadway, Maidenhead & Slough on the West too. Liverpool St & Paddington will have fun with their information screens I imagine! I still doubt a little that people know who is running their service considering some difficulties I've had with friends who don't even realise! That being said, it's a right mess and takes us back once again to confused mixed messaging that has been ever-present this pandemic.
 

Jonny

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What a farce it will be at places like Shenfield and Stratford. "The next train to London is a TfL Rail service, you must wear a face covering to board this service". Will those who don't want to wear a face covering be able to ignore TfL Rail services when claiming Delay Repay?

Are TfL seriously going to try and enforce it at, say, Shepherd's Bush? Surely people will just wise up and say "yeah, I'm catching a Southern service".

This is utterly pathetic political gameplaying. I'd expect nothing less from Khan.

The real 'proof of the pudding' will be in how many people wear face coverings on National Rail vs TfL services, and how the usage of each of the two recovers.

It will be logistically near-impossible to enforce.
 

RPI

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From todays Telegraph, its behind a pay wall so here goes


Mayor has drawn up proposals for face coverings to be made a ‘condition of carriage’ on Tube and buses

ByLucy Fisher, DEPUTY POLITICAL EDITOR13 July 2021 • 7:21pm


Face masks are to stay compulsory on the London Underground and buses under plans announced by the capital's Mayor, Sadiq Khan.
Mr Khan has asked Transport for London (TfL) to retain face coverings as a mandatory measure after next Monday, when national guidance changes.
This week, Boris Johnson confirmed that, from July 19, the legal requirement to wear a mask will end but they will be "expected and recommended" in crowded and enclosed spaces such as public transport.
Mr Khan has gone a step further and drawn up proposals for their use to be made a "condition of carriage" on all TfL Tubes, buses, trams, overground and automated light metro trains.
The Labour mayor, who is the chairman of TfL, has also instructed TfL to keep masks mandatory in taxis and Ubers. TfL must now conduct an equality impact assessment of the plan, but it is expected to go ahead.
Labour has petitioned the Government to keep masks mandatory on transport and in shops, theatres and cinemas, rather than scrapping the legal requirements at step four of the roadmap.

Conditions of carriage are contractual conditions between passengers and TfL. Existing conditions include not consuming alcohol, smoking or vaping.
Trained enforcement officers will continue to tour London's transport network to ensure that passengers are wearing masks as well as carrying the correct ticket.
Sources familiar with the enforcement of the current mask rules say compliance has been high. However, trade unions have warned that frontline staff could face disputes with passengers when trying to enforce masks once the England-wide guidance changes.
It emerged this week that MPs will be free to make their own choice over whether to wear a mask, but it will remain compulsory for Commons staff. On Tuesday, the FDA union, which represents senior civil servants, said it would name and shame MPs who refused to wear face coverings.
 

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It will be interesting at stations like Moorgate, Old Street, Highbury and Islington and Farringdon (more will exist) where the services are operated by GTR. They may force you to wear a mask to enter the station, but you are not actually using their service so the change is unenforceable.
 

RPI

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It will be interesting at stations like Moorgate, Old Street, Highbury and Islington and Farringdon (more will exist) where the services are operated by GTR. They may force you to wear a mask to enter the station, but you are not actually using their service so the change is unenforceable.
I just hope RDG don't do the same, having to wear one on a tube/commuter train is one thing but to continue having to wear one on long distance services is just ridiculous
 

duncanp

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Sadiq Khant has more or less admitted that wearing face nappies is about making passengers "feel safe" (to use that nauseating phrase), as well as their (rather dubious) effect in suppressing transmission of the virus.

But other public transport operators take the opposite view, which is to say that face coverings make people feel less confident about travelling on public transport. (ie, is your breath so diseased and infectious that you have to cover it with a flimsy piece of cloth?)

The London Mayor has said that as well as suppressing the virus it is also about giving passengers confidence.

Other operators do not feel the same way - many are worried that requiring face masks will make passengers think that public transport is less safe than other indoor settings like pubs and restaurants at a time when they desperately need the numbers on board to go up.
 

RPI

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I'm exempt from wearing one anyway, I still wore one for the first 12 months, thinking I was doing the right thing, then when dates kept getting extended etc I stopped as was making myself constantly unwell, I really fail to see why people are so obsessed with wearing one when there's very shaky evidence to suggest that they actually do anything.
 

Ianno87

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But other public transport operators take the opposite view, which is to say that face coverings make people feel less confident about travelling on public transport. (ie, is your breath so diseased and infectious that you have to cover it with a flimsy piece of cloth?)

Which operators are these?
 

big_rig

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Two dire interviews with Shapps and Khan this morning on the topic. The former ‘very relaxed’ about having both the move to personal responsibility and operators setting their own rules, the latter going on about ‘the most unselfish act you can make’ that also needs to be enforced by law. No discussion at all as to how long this will last, so forever then given the absolutely spurious reasoning for masks - how do you ever stop enforcing something which has no scientific backing?

I hope RDG hold their nerve and don’t buckle. It is not exactly good for public transport as a whole but they can keep on saying their trains are safe and good to travel on, and London’s aren’t because they’re so dangerous you must wear a mask on them.
 

island

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An open-ended rule that might never be removed.

I despair of this country.
 

Ianno87

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Sadiq Khant has more or less admitted that wearing face nappies is about making passengers "feel safe" (to use that nauseating phrase), as well as their (rather dubious) effect in suppressing transmission of the virus.

From a purely revenue perspective, if more people are encouraged to travel because of this reassurance (even if the grounds for that are debatable) than are put off by the mask requirement, then that's a good thing. Right now, public transport needs passengers and revenue coming in.

(I'm not getting into the debate as to whether or not masks are effective)

The rail delivery groups statement was fairly clear. Although I am yet to see it followed up by an operating company.

Not what RDG's website says...


Consider other passengers and rail staff and wear a face covering while using our services
 

ianwall

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Will London Overground and TFL Rail be subject to the new rules? Not sure whether they operate under the TFL conditions of carriage or the National Rail equivalent...
 

yorkie

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I'm exempt from wearing one anyway, I still wore one for the first 12 months, thinking I was doing the right thing, then when dates kept getting extended etc I stopped as was making myself constantly unwell, I really fail to see why people are so obsessed with wearing one when there's very shaky evidence to suggest that they actually do anything.
It's highly symbolic. It's a sign of their authoritarian values and their control over us.
From a purely revenue perspective, if more people are encouraged to travel because of this reassurance (even if the grounds for that are debatable) than are put off by the mask requirement, then that's a good thing. Right now, public transport needs passengers and revenue coming in.
That's interesting as many of those you agree with on the issue of flimsy masks would think we should not increase public transport usage.

I don't agree that mandatory masks increase usage.

(I'm not getting into the debate as to whether or not masks are effective)
Yes it's about providing a placebo; I think we are in agreement over that. The question is how many people are encouraged by the placebo Vs how may are put off?

Not what RDG's website says...

It's not mandatory. I've been vaccinated so my consideration takes that into account.

Will London Overground and TFL Rail be subject to the new rules? Not sure whether they operate under the TFL conditions of carriage or the National Rail equivalent...
They operate under both.

If you are using non-TfL NR trains then u don't think TfL can mandate what you wear at TfL stations
 

Failed Unit

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From a purely revenue perspective, if more people are encouraged to travel because of this reassurance (even if the grounds for that are debatable) than are put off by the mask requirement, then that's a good thing. Right now, public transport needs passengers and revenue coming in.

(I'm not getting into the debate as to whether or not masks are effective)



Not what RDG's website says...

From many news sources yesterday.

They are right. Force masks you are saying drive as rail is not safe.
But the industry group representing all domestic train operators, such as Southeastern, TransPennine Express, and Avanti West Coast, said that none of its members would force passengers to wear masks.

"Train travel is low-risk, with the majority of carriages well ventilated by air conditioning systems or by doors and windows," the industry body Rail Delivery Group (RDG) said in a statement.
 

big_rig

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I also see London TravelWatch continuing to promote their inane polling saying >50% of people would stop using public transport in the capital if masks were not mandated. Where on earth would they go? Would they just sit inside forever and never go to work? They scurried away from this forum when asked that basic question yet continue to promote it.
 

nedchester

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I don’t know about TfL but I would think a change to the CoC needs consultation?

That said who’s going to enforce it? The BTP won’t be interested.
 

westv

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I'm sure I've read here that mask compliance on TFL services has been slipping for some time anyway. Is that correct?
 

RPI

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I've seen the past few months less people wearing them, or just wearing them over their mouth or chin, I'm not going to lie, the first few days of me not wearing one, being a member of staff and wearing a sunflower lanyard I felt a bit uneasy, but my main unease was at the looks and comments I may get, but I havent had any to be fair. My medical issues for not wearing one mainly manifest after wearing one for long periods of time, whenever I have to spend time with someone, such as issuing a Penalty Fare/MG11 I do generally still put one on for the interaction, again, I find i do this just out of courtesy to the passenger.
The say can't come soon enough that everyone doesn't have to wear one.
 

davews

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Jubilee line train last week at one point half my carriage were bare faced. As for making people feel safe on the tube, the packed state of them shows that most people are not worried about that.

I am also exempt. I was hoping I could bin my exemption lanyard from Monday but it seems I will have to continue wearing it. I am certainly not wearing a mask.
 

island

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I don’t know about TfL but I would think a change to the CoC needs consultation?
Sadiq won’t care.
That said who’s going to enforce it? The BTP won’t be interested.
Indeed. As the CoC do not have the force of criminal law the only remedy if a passenger doesn’t comply is refusal of travel/removal from the train. The longer I think about it the more I think cheap PR stunt.
 

Mojo

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I don’t know about TfL but I would think a change to the CoC needs consultation?

That said who’s going to enforce it? The BTP won’t be interested.
It’s already in the Conditions of Carriage, and has been for some time. Apparently the detail is being worked out and we should know more today.
Sneaky, I thought they'd have to issue a bylaw to do that.
When the law first came into effect June of last year it was only mandatory to wear one in a vehicle or when about to board one. At the time TfL tried to introduce a byelaw via a back door under the byelaw stating that staff may issue a safety instruction, and that instruction was communicated by way of a poster at every station. That poster was removed when the government tightened the law later in the summer stating that they must be worn on any enclosed or partially enclosed transport location. The problem being that the byelaws only apply for rail based transports, and not on the buses (only at bus stations).

Indeed. As the CoC do not have the force of criminal law the only remedy if a passenger doesn’t comply is refusal of travel/removal from the train. The longer I think about it the more I think cheap PR stunt.
Speaking with BTP officers, they are not able to get involved with civil disputes (which this will become from next week). If a member of staff however asks someone to leave and they do not, then they will be able to get involved, but the only punishment being removal. In reality you are totally right, it is a stunt.
 

philosopher

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I also see London TravelWatch continuing to promote their inane polling saying >50% of people would stop using public transport in the capital if masks were not mandated. Where on earth would they go? Would they just sit inside forever and never go to work? They scurried away from this forum when asked that basic question yet continue to promote it.
The 50% who say they would stop using public transport if masks were not mandated may be those who hardly use public transport anyway.
 

island

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The reaction most Londoners will take from this is “tube too dangerous, better drive”.
 

Tazi Hupefi

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Presumably if you purchase your ticket now, (or have a season ricket etc) the current conditions are the ones which apply! Unless they continue to use the Byelaw 14 "safety notice" to criminalise non compliance.

They have no chance of being able to rely on 2.4, (what's already there). The section will need to be reworded after 19 July.
 

nlogax

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The reaction most Londoners will take from this is “tube too dangerous, better drive”.

Do you mean if masks weren't mandated? That's questionable, especially if drivers have to get from one side of town to the other. It's an expensive and time-consuming business especially to route around the congestion charge zone.
 
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