• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

safety of the line / operational incident

Status
Not open for further replies.

BTU

Member
Joined
13 Jan 2016
Messages
247
I would like to put it out there and ask would a wrong route be and operational incident ? or a safety of the line incident ?, some TOC'S say one thing some say another so which is it ?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
68,582
Location
Yorkshire
Any particular circumstances, e.g. an electric train being routed onto a non-electrified line?

Are you just talking about a wrong route being offered (attributable to NR), or a wrong route being accepted (potentially additionally attributable to the TOC)?
 
Last edited:

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,332
Any particular circumstances, e.g. an electric train being routed onto a non-electrified line?

Are you just talking about a wrong route being offered (attributable to NR), or a wrong route being accepted (attributable to the TOC)?
Deleted.
 
Last edited:

WCMLaddict

Member
Joined
20 Mar 2012
Messages
417
What 455 said. Far too many places like that to make such sweeping statement yorkie
 

BTU

Member
Joined
13 Jan 2016
Messages
247
Any particular circumstances, e.g. an electric train being routed onto a non-electrified line?

Are you just talking about a wrong route being offered (attributable to NR), or a wrong route being accepted (attributable to the TOC)?

I'm talking about any wrong route give by the sig doesn't matter where it goes .
 

GB

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
6,459
Location
Somewhere
What 455 said. Far too many places like that to make such sweeping statement yorkie

What sweeping statement? Wrong routings are split 50/50 if the driver has taken it unless there are genuine mitigating circumstances of which the scenario described by 455driver would be one.

Wrong routings that a driver stops and challenges is 100% attributed to either NR ops or NR planning.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
68,582
Location
Yorkshire
So any wrong route accepted is the TOC (drivers) fault is it, thats quite a statement!
That's not at all what I said! For example, for a bird strike incident, the attribution depends on the size of the bird. No party would be at "fault".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What sweeping statement? Wrong routings are split 50/50 if the driver has taken it unless there are genuine mitigating circumstances of which the scenario described by 455driver would be one.

Wrong routings that a driver stops and challenges is 100% attributed to either NR ops or NR planning.
Thanks, yes that is what I was trying to say.

I was certainly not talking about any party being "at fault"; anyone who thinks that is reading something that just isn't there!

Some interesting threads:

 

ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,573
Location
UK
I would like to put it out there and ask would a wrong route be and operational incident ? or a safety of the line incident ?, some TOC'S say one thing some say another so which is it ?

My driving record is called my Safety of the Line record by my TOC and has a list of all incidents I am involved in. It is not a poor reflection of my driving, just a record of incidents I have been involved in.

When I have an incident it is an "operating incident" every incident gets called that and there was a shift recently that moved SPAD's into that category until they have been correctly classified.

What we have is a situation that has NR call things A and TOC's call things B. Personally, I try not to worry about it. Operating incident is an umbrella term for everything that happens out there. When it comes down to the investigation the incidents get dealt with differently. For Drivers it will often go down on their Safety record but that still is just another umbrella term.

Each incident is dealt with differently. If you go flying through a station due to slip then it will still go on your record, even if your exonerated. It is still important to have the record as it can often show how you dealt with it. Did you adhere to the brake policy etc ?

Drivers up for disciplinary get their records looked at in fine detail and again, each incident is looked at more specifically. Was policy followed previously, was it speed related, was it driving related, is there a trend, was the development plan followed ? The record will help DM's make decisions on training, development plans, and potential dismissal.
 

WCMLaddict

Member
Joined
20 Mar 2012
Messages
417
Well, i did read yorkie's post as also blaming. There is number of other different situations when 'accepting' the route would be attributed to NR not TOC that simplifying wrong routes the way yorkie did is wrong.
 

WCMLaddict

Member
Joined
20 Mar 2012
Messages
417
Wasn't the only one.

Are you just talking about a wrong route being offered (attributable to NR), or a wrong route being accepted (potentially additionally attributable to the TOC)?

That's the simplification that is just wrong.
 
Last edited:

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
16,203
Wrong routings that a driver stops and challenges is 100% attributed to either NR ops or NR planning.

How can a wrong route go to NR planning? That would get disputed back to the TDA straight away.
 

BTU

Member
Joined
13 Jan 2016
Messages
247
So are we saying that an SOL is no worse than an operational incident ? Just given different names ? So when I apply for a new job will they think a SPAD is no worse than a wrong route if they are categorised in the same manner ? Or is there an understanding that an incident is just an incident and the question is how many have you been involved in?
 

class 9

Member
Joined
18 Nov 2010
Messages
964
Is there a length of time after a SOL incident that has gone on your record that doesn't need to be declared on a application?
I had 2 incidents early in my driving career, SPAD 10 ft past signal and a low speed speeding incident 15 on a 10 over a distance of approx 50 metres.
These where 20 and 16 years ago respectively, clear record ever since.
 

ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,573
Location
UK
So are we saying that an SOL is no worse than an operational incident ? Just given different names ? So when I apply for a new job will they think a SPAD is no worse than a wrong route if they are categorised in the same manner ? Or is there an understanding that an incident is just an incident and the question is how many have you been involved in?

I have never seen any SOL incident ever taken out of context. I would say that various factors are taken into account. We all know that there is a difference between a SPAD and a wrong side door release but we all know that a TPWS Overspeed and a Station overrun can be linked (aggressive driving technique)

If a DM was looking at your SOL record and saw multiple incidents of TPWS trips then they will see a pattern of driving behaviour. The same applies to other types of incidents. How many stop shorts would be acceptable. One may be ok but 3 ? Same with the number of incidents a Driver would have. How many is acceptable over a period of time ? Data from the ORR/RSSB etc. shows that you can go many years without incident but suddenly have a few in a short space of time.

I would absolutely say that a Driver with 6 "operating incidents" is pretty meaningless without context. Any Manager worth their salt will look deeper at the SOL record to see what each incident was and look at the circumstances.

I'm sure we have all seen Driver go up for disciplinary and we are all well aware of their records. How many come away with development plans and how many get dismissed.

I have lost count of the number of "operating incidents" I have been involved in. From Passcoms coming out of stations, being egressed at 60mph, wheel slides into stations, wrong routes (not accepted), signals reverting to danger etc. They are all classed as "Operating Incidents" I think if they put signals going back on my SOL record I would need a few sheets of A4 <D
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Is there a length of time after a SOL incident that has gone on your record that doesn't need to be declared on a application?

We just had a Driver have his SOL record pulled up from 1997
 

G136GREYHOUND

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2014
Messages
239
You can't drive for any length of time and NOT have something go wrong, just be honest with the new TOC you are applying to.

How can any driver stop at 14,000 stations a year and not have one fail to call every couple of years for example ?
 

OpsWeb

Member
Joined
14 Oct 2014
Messages
150
Potential employers are only concerned with "operational incidents" where you *could* have been blamed for the outcome.

The "transfer of safety critical information" form specifically requests info for the following:

SPADS (Cat A only)
Station overruns (including where driver was not at fault)
Station stop-shorts
Failure to calls
Aditional to calls
Derailments
Collisions
Wrong-side door release
Excess speed incidents
TPWS activations / interventions
Any other safety incidents where driver was fully/partially at fault.

So things such as passcomms or trespassers (including almost all driver reports except concerning the above) etc... are not transferred between employers.

When applying to other companies - you fill in a blank form and send it to your potential new employer, they then look at it and offer you a job (hopefully) conditionally. They then contact your existing TOC to countersign the form.

There is no time limit, and incidents never expire - but equally nothing disqualifies you from applying as it will still be a human manager looking over the form.

The form in question requests:

Records relevant to the individual’s employment as a train driver
Results of tests used in selecting the applicant as a train driver
Results of competence assessment records: the most recent competency records that demonstrate
the train driver’s competence
Route and traction competence current at the time the applicant left your company
Training records
Incidents, accidents and near misses for which the applicant was found to be wholly or partly responsible
Occupational medical records that have affected the person’s ability to undertake their duties as a
train driver
Restrictions or exclusions placed upon the applicant’s work as a train driver because of a safety of the line incident, medical reasons or other cause
A current certified copy of the European Train Driving Certificate issued in accordance with Article 17 of Directive 2007/59/EC, by current employer or a certified copy of the European Train Driving Certificate as per Office of Rail Regulation (ORR) Guide to the Train Driving Licences and Certificates Regulations Annex B5, issued by previous employer
 
Last edited:

MrPIC

Member
Joined
30 May 2015
Messages
426
I had a look through my SOL record the other day, a fatality I had was marked as "Driver Exonerated?------ No.
Sorry about running over that bloke everone, I should have swerved.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top