Saltley firemen needed to have their Weetabix.

[38Cto15E]

In the late 50's early 60's Saltley depot had a job in their links (probably top link) where the driver and fireman worked all the way through to Carlisle over the S&C with a fast freight.
I feel exhausted just thinking about it.
Washwood Heath-Derby-Clay Cross-Rotherham-Leeds-Skipton and over the S&C to Carlisle around 230 miles. It may have been Masborough and Skipton where the train had a quick service stop to water, sort out the fire etc etc
By the time the train reached Leeds the crew must have been mentally and physically tired looking for all the semaphore signals on gloomy witer nights, steep gradients, long tunnels and the fireman probaly only had a chees sandwich and an orange to eat washed down with a few cans of tea.
I think the trains were usually Black 5 hauled but towards the end of steam a 9F with automatic stoker was tried but it wasn't very successful.
Oh, and after a sleep in the Carlisle lodge it was back again over the 230 miles the next night. Just imagine how hard work this would be with a loco in poor condition or poor coal. When loco's were changed en route I understand locos such as 0-6-0 4F's had to be used.

As you can see I have been reading lots of books and mags about life on the footplate and I feel very guilty now. In this period when an express pulled into the station I used to pester the footplate crew to 'cab her' even before the wheels had stopped turning, not quite realising 1/ How hard they had been working 2/ How hard they were going to work 3/ They would probably need to top the tender up, clean the fire with fire irons, bring the coal forward etc
Great memories though.

 

[WesternLancer]

In the late 50's early 60's Saltley depot had a job in their links (probably top link) where the driver and fireman worked all the way through to Carlisle over the S&C with a fast freight.
I feel exhausted just thinking about it.
Washwood Heath-Derby-Clay Cross-Rotherham-Leeds-Skipton and over the S&C to Carlisle around 230 miles. It may have been Masborough and Skipton where the train had a quick service stop to water, sort out the fire etc etc
By the time the train reached Leeds the crew must have been mentally and physically tired looking for all the semaphore signals on gloomy witer nights, steep gradients, long tunnels and the fireman probaly only had a chees sandwich and an orange to eat washed down with a few cans of tea.
I think the trains were usually Black 5 hauled but towards the end of steam a 9F with automatic stoker was tried but it wasn't very successful.
Oh, and after a sleep in the Carlisle lodge it was back again over the 230 miles the next night. Just imagine how hard work this would be with a loco in poor condition or poor coal. When loco's were changed en route I understand locos such as 0-6-0 4F's had to be used.

As you can see I have been reading lots of books and mags about life on the footplate and I feel very guilty now. In this period when an express pulled into the station I used to pester the footplate crew to 'cab her' even before the wheels had stopped turning, not quite realising 1/ How hard they had been working 2/ How hard they were going to work 3/ They would probably need to top the tender up, clean the fire with fire irons, bring the coal forward etc
Great memories though.

Great post - what it makes me think to ask you though is how did those crews react when you asked them if you could get in the cab? What were your experiences?

 

[38Cto15E]

Quite a lot would say No, but in a friendly way, usually there were too many little spotters wanting to 'cab it', all in their school uniforms with ties and caps and the obligitary duffel bag over the shoulder.
One driver actually said to me you can come to Birmingham (from leicester) on the footplate of a B1, but I told him my mam was expecting me home for dinner.
I remember a Leicester Central 38C driver letting me cab an A3 and as there was no big regulater handle at 45 degrees, I said how does it move so he showed me.

 

[WesternLancer]

Quite a lot would say No, but in a friendly way, usually there were too many little spotters wanting to 'cab it', all in their school uniforms with ties and caps and the obligitary duffel bag over the shoulder.
One driver actually said to me you can come to Birmingham (from leicester) on the footplate of a B1, but I told him my mam was expecting me home for dinner.
I remember a Leicester Central 38C driver letting me cab an A3 and as there was no big regulater handle at 45 degrees, I said how does it move so he showed me.

Cheers, bet you regret not taking the Brum trip!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I have only ever done a footplate in D396 and it was the Barton Loop north of Preston. I did not even have to ask as the driver stopped and asked me circa summer 1970

 

[furnessvale]

I have only ever done a footplate in D396 and it was the Barton Loop north of Preston. I did not even have to ask as the driver stopped and asked me circa summer 1970

When surveying the WCML north of Preston in the 1960s I would often ask the signalman in one of the many boxes if he had anything he could stop to give us a lift back to Preston. It often produced a light engine, eg a black five, and a quick ride home.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

When surveying the WCML north of Preston in the 1960s I would often ask the signalman in one of the many boxes if he had anything he could stop to give us a lift back to Preston. It often produced a light engine, eg a black five, and a quick ride home.

Fantastic. On another note about 1 mile north of Preston heading south into Preston there is another loop though it was all 4 track at one time. My father born in 1933 used to hop on some of the wagons with his mate and hitch a ride into Preston jumping off in the Pit Street area before the train got into the station. Then they would give a cheeky wave to the guard in the Guard Van as if to say thanks for the ride.

 

[the sniper]

In the late 50's early 60's Saltley depot had a job in their links (probably top link) where the driver and fireman worked all the way through to Carlisle over the S&C with a fast freight.
I feel exhausted just thinking about it.
Washwood Heath-Derby-Clay Cross-Rotherham-Leeds-Skipton and over the S&C to Carlisle around 230 miles.

Crikey, they really did go everywhere! How long would that have taken? Decent earner I guess, with that millage and lodging?

 

[Cowley]

God, imagine it in winter though, with a badly steaming, tired loco and a gale blowing through the footplate...

 

[Welshman]

Have you read Terry Essery's " More Firing Days at Saltley" [Pub. Bradford Barton -ISBN 0 85153 376 0]? I suspect long out of print but may be available on Amazon.
He relates the awe and reverence with which the Carlisle turns were held at Saltley, and the relief when the mechanical stokers were introduced. And then the agony and exhaustion of manually firing such an engine when the mechanical stoker failed. A very good read indeed.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

God, imagine it in winter though, with a badly steaming, tired loco and a gale blowing through the footplate...

Which could blow hot sparks possibly. I don’t know what the pay grade was but sounds like they were worth every penny.

 

[Welshman]

Crikey, they really did go everywhere! How long would that have taken? Decent earner I guess, with that millage and lodging?

Again, according to Essery, they left at 4.45pm. He does not give the booked arrival time at Carlisle, but from the timings of the return trip the following day - 4.03pm from Carlisle and arrive at Washwood Heath at 11.33pm, the timings would be about 7.5 to 8 hours, depending on the circumstances.
They were paid on a mileage basis, and although they only [?] worked 4 days per week, it was the equivalent in terms of £.s.d. of a whole week of nights.

Route knowledge of Saltley men was legendary. Not for nothing was the story that when Neil Armstrong first arrived on the Moon with Apollo 11, he found Saltley men waiting to bring it back.

 

[the sniper]

Again, according to Essery, they left at 4.45pm. He does not give the booked arrival time at Carlisle, but from the timings of the return trip the following day - 4.03pm from Carlisle and arrive at Washwood Heath at 11.33pm, the timings would be about 7.5 to 8 hours, depending on the circumstances.
They were paid on a mileage basis, and although they only [?] worked 4 days per week, it was the equivalent in terms of £.s.d. of a whole week of nights.

Thanks for that.

Route knowledge of Saltley men was legendary. Not for nothing was the story that when Neil Armstrong first arrived on the Moon with Apollo 11, he found Saltley men waiting to bring it back.

Indeed. Sad to see what became of the place. Still plenty of ex-Saltley men about in various places, though few go so far and wide nowadays!

 

[John Webb]

Have you read Terry Essery's " More Firing Days at Saltley" [Pub. Bradford Barton -ISBN 0 85153 376 0]? I suspect long out of print but may be available on Amazon.
He relates the awe and reverence with which the Carlisle turns were held at Saltley, and the relief when the mechanical stokers were introduced. And then the agony and exhaustion of manually firing such an engine when the mechanical stoker failed. A very good read indeed.

"More Firing Days at Saltley" was reprinted with "Firing Days" as a single volume "Saltley Firing Days" in 1994 by Silverlink Publications, ISBN 1 85794 017 2.

Terry Essery says that either a 'Black 5' or a 9F was rostered for this trip, but usually the latter about the time he started on this trip. He was involved with the experiments with mechanical stoker-fitted 9Fs. These trials were rather let down by the unavailability of the right sort of graded coal, particularly at Saltley. So the stoker conveyor screw often jammed when it tried to move too large a piece of coal from the tender.

Booked arrival time at Carlisle was 11.40pm, according to a table of one his trips in the Silver Link edition, by the way.

 

[ilkestonian]

I've been searching in vain for some black and white film footage I saw a few years ago, probably on YouTube but I'm not certain.

The part I remember is footage of the Carlisle freight train (behind a 9F IIRC) calling at Derby St. Mary's en route north to pick up some wagons.

Anyone else remember ever seeing this?

 

[Gloster]

I've been searching in vain for some black and white film footage I saw a few years ago, probably on YouTube but I'm not certain.

The part I remember is footage of the Carlisle freight train (behind a 9F IIRC) calling at Derby St. Mary's en route north to pick up some wagons.

Anyone else remember ever seeing this?

Recently there was a British Transport Films short on Talking Pictures of the Bristol-Leeds goods. I can’t remember the title but there was some discussion about it on one of the forums.

It is Fully Fitted Freight.

 

[ilkestonian]

On the subject of cabbing locos, when I used to spot, back in the sixties and seventies, a Peak D61, I think, was a rare visitor to Stafford. My brother and I asked the driver if we could cab it, and not only did he let us, he opened the engine room door and took us through there too. No 'elf and safety in those days!

@Gloster yes, Fully Fitted Freight. I think that was it. Will search again

 

[Saltleyman]

I was a fireman at Salltley in the early 1960's and remember the Carlisle jobs at the depot well.I was eventually boked on these jobs several times (but after they were steam allocated),We usually had a class 25 or 45 diesel on these jobs. there were in fact two jobs a day one booking on at 03.00hrs (3,50 ex Water Orton to Carlisle) and ther second turn was book on 1550( 1645 ex Water Orton to Glasgow). You booked on Monday worked to Carlisle lodged at Kingmoor then worked back the following day to Washwood Heath Down sidings then booked on again Thursday returning Friday, another two crews booked on Tuesday and returned Wednesday,, the crews that had booked on Tuesday then booked on again Friday returning saturday.

 

[WesternLancer]

Recently there was a British Transport Films short on Talking Pictures of the Bristol-Leeds goods. I can’t remember the title but there was some discussion about it on one of the forums.

It is Fully Fitted Freight.

Fully Fitted Freight has section where train calls at Derby St Mary's IIRC

Watch Fully Fitted Freight - BFI Player

Illustrating the efficiency of express freight trains, and how they link manufacturers with their customers at the other end of Britain.

player.bfi.org.uk

I was a fireman at Salltley in the early 1960's and remember the Carlisle jobs at the depot well.I was eventually boked on these jobs several times (but after they were steam allocated),We usually had a class 25 or 45 diesel on these jobs. there were in fact two jobs a day one booking on at 03.00hrs (3,50 ex Water Orton to Carlisle) and ther second turn was book on 1550( 1645 ex Water Orton to Glasgow). You booked on Monday worked to Carlisle lodged at Kingmoor then worked back the following day to Washwood Heath Down sidings then booked on again Thursday returning Friday, another two crews booked on Tuesday and returned Wednesday,, the crews that had booked on Tuesday then booked on again Friday returning saturday.

must have been an interesting turn, even post steam era, given the areas passed through.

 

[Ostrich]

On the subject of cabbing locos, when I used to spot, back in the sixties and seventies, a Peak D61, I think, was a rare visitor to Stafford. My brother and I asked the driver if we could cab it, and not only did he let us, he opened the engine room door and took us through there too. No 'elf and safety in those days!

Which reminds me of spotting on Bromford Bridge Platform (Birmingham) back in the sixties. Peaks would arrive light engine into the platform before reversing back into Washwood Heath Yard. We always used to ask if we could cab the loco, but rarely got permission. Apart from one memorable day when we were invited to board the back cab, unaware that there was a second crew in the front cab - who were unaware of us and promptly set off into the yard! We had to very discreetly walk back out ....

 

[AndyPJG]

Have you read Terry Essery's " More Firing Days at Saltley" [Pub. Bradford Barton -ISBN 0 85153 376 0]? I suspect long out of print but may be available on Amazon.
He relates the awe and reverence with which the Carlisle turns were held at Saltley, and the relief when the mechanical stokers were introduced. And then the agony and exhaustion of manually firing such an engine when the mechanical stoker failed. A very good read indeed.

I will echo that, an excellent (more than once too) read, and a fascinating insight into that era.
It was indeed the 'Top Link' at Saltley shed, and unusual being a freight working.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Which reminds me of spotting on Bromford Bridge Platform (Birmingham) back in the sixties. Peaks would arrive light engine into the platform before reversing back into Washwood Heath Yard. We always used to ask if we could cab the loco, but rarely got permission. Apart from one memorable day when we were invited to board the back cab, unaware that there was a second crew in the front cab - who were unaware of us and promptly set off into the yard! We had to very discreetly walk back out ....

Brilliant story.

OT warning: When my lad was about 6 or 7 ish, we were stood in the corridor of the driving trailer of a Swiss train at Zurich main station. The cab door was wide open so we could see up the tracks. The driver came up behind us and asked if we were going to the Airport, (which we were), he then invited us into the cab and I sat on the R/H seat with my lad on my knee. What a great and unexpected (but all too short) trip that was. He was well laid back too, feet up smoking a fag, and he gave us a wave when we got off at the airport.

 

[talltim]

You have to wonder why, bring a fast freight, it was routed like that?
Also wouldn’t it have been cheaper for the crew to take it somewhere halfway and come back with the return working while a Carlisle crew did the other half? Save the lodging costs

 

[Gloster]

You have to wonder why, bring a fast freight, it was routed like that?
Also wouldn’t it have been cheaper for the crew to take it somewhere halfway and come back with the return working while a Carlisle crew did the other half? Save the lodging costs

The routeing would have, at least partly, been because, “That’s the way we’ve always done it.”

Lodging costs were hardly anything, even for Relief Signalmen in the 1980s, and at least you have a crew the whole way: no getting to Skipton or somewhere and having to wait while a replacement is found because someone is missing

 

[richardsun]

Out of curiosity, did the railways provide their own lodgings for drivers / firemen in those days? Or would it just be local B&Bs or equivalent?

 

[WesternLancer]

Out of curiosity, did the railways provide their own lodgings for drivers / firemen in those days? Or would it just be local B&Bs or equivalent?

Think the railway owned lodgings at least at some points, in big railway centres. I'm thinking more like a hostel than a B&B. would be interesting to hear views of staff as have posted above on that actually.

 

[Saltleyman]

Out of curiosity, did the railways provide their own lodgings for drivers / firemen in those days? Or would it just be local B&Bs or equivalent?

The Railway owned and staffed all the "Railway lodges" there were numerous lodges throughout the country.Saltley at one time just after nationisation lodged at Carlisle, Leeds,Rowsley,Peterboro',Lincoln,Sheffield and Swansea!As to the routeing of these trains Saltley was an ex MR depot and the route taken at the start was all MR metals although at later times these trains worked over various routes North of Sheffield to Leeds.The main reason Saltley kept this job was the main traffic conveyed was fruit and vegetables from Worcestershire and Glostershire plus general traffic from Lawley Street (the largest covered freight depot in the UK)to Shefield(Wicker) detached at Rotherham,and Glasgow traffic.When the Stoker fitted 9f's were built 92165/66/67 they were allocated to Saltley for use on these services.Only Saltley and Durran Hiill crews were trained on the use of the Berkley Automatic stoker which was the cheapest way to use these locos.Saltley had special deliveries of coal suitable for use with the system.

 

[Gloster]

This is not an area on which I am knowledgable, but I do know that a lot of depots serving major stations and yards had dormitories; some of these seem to have been located in the structure supporting water tanks. There were also places where a former sleeping car, or a converted day coach, was used; it is possible that this was only at locations requiring temporary facilities.

 

[Efini92]

Route knowledge of Saltley men was legendary. Not for nothing was the story that when Neil Armstrong first arrived on the Moon with Apollo 11, he found Saltley men waiting to bring it back.
[/QUOTE]
Ha ha that quote always makes me chuckle.

 

[Taunton]

There were a number of stories of the Saltley to Carlisle operations in the magazines (and their associated annuals) of the 1950s-60s, for some reason always northbound - perhaps the Saltley inspectors were more minded than Carlisle's to accompany such trips. One extended description was with a Black 5, though it was described what a nightmare the 9Fs were to fire manually over the top of a jammed/failed stoker. As jammed stokers were, honestly, unknown in the USA (which is where the BR ones were made), I wonder what the BR installation got wrong. In the USA, there was a Federal law requiring stokers to be compulsory over a certain loco size.

Even more surprising for the 1960s was a lengthy description of almost the same length, a night freight from Burton-on-Trent to Carlisle, a beer train, with nothing more than a 4F 0-6-0 throughout for the trip.