Save Our Railway - Stranraer

[bkhtele]

It's debatable whether the ferries actually provided much of business case for keeping the line open in recent years.

My view is the strongest business case for the line is local passengers plus ferry passengers. I was on the ferry 11.30 ex Cairnryan on Friday there were 250 foot passengers, most came by bus. I checked seat availability from Glasgow on the coach the previous Wed for Friday and it was already full. With a decent train service from Glasgow and a convenient transfer to Cairnryan by bus (journey 10 minutes) many could have travelled by train. Translink (Northern Ireland) seem only interested in their bus service, and Scotrail & Stena/p&o seem not to be able to work together effectively. Looks like there is little hope for this line unless someone can get the rail sea organisations to work together. So much for Nationalisation.

Pricing is a key issue: a return day rider ticket to Glasgow and area from Girvan or Barrhill is £10.70 (1 adult min) plus add on £13.60 Stranraer to Barrhill. Or £26.90 is the off peak day return to Glasgow. Compare this to Southern's £10 off peak dayrider if it was £13.60 with an add on £5 it would generate lots of new business.

Finally I checked the train at Ayr to Stranraer before it left on Fri there were approx 10 passengers, probably most for Girvan

 

[Greenback]

I am intrigued that you have managed to count the number of foot passengers so precisely!

Pricing is indeed a key issue. As is establishing a timetable that maximises local traffic. In order for the line to survive, there needs to be both. But we need to face up to the fact that the ferries are gone and won't be coming back.

 

[tbtc]

Pricing is a key issue: a return day rider ticket to Glasgow and area from Girvan or Barrhill is £10.70 (1 adult min) plus add on £13.60 Stranraer to Barrhill. Or £26.90 is the off peak day return to Glasgow. Compare this to Southern's £10 off peak dayrider if it was £13.60 with an add on £5 it would generate lots of new business

TBF a fare of around £25 for a journey of around ninety miles isn't too shabby - the Southern £10 deal isn't really a benchmark of what the rest of the UK counts as an average fare.

 

[Greenback]

TBF a fare of around £25 for a journey of around ninety miles isn't too shabby - the Southern £10 deal isn't really a benchmark of what the rest of the UK counts as an average fare.

On the other hand, an off peak day return from Llanelli to Cardiff is around £11.00 for an hourly service and a journey of about 57 miles.

If I live din Stranraer, I doubt I would think thta £26 is a fair fare for the journey, given the service.

 

[harz99]

On the other hand, an off peak day return from Llanelli to Cardiff is around £11.00 for an hourly service and a journey of about 57 miles.

Comparable mileage Stranraer to Ayr is £18.10p off peak day return, the level of service is abysmal and the rolling stock very tired internally . So yes the fares are not fair.

I was at a SWESTRANS meeting a couple of years ago now, when a high ranking person from Transport Scotland stated the average fare per mile on Scotland's railways to be in the region of 11p a mile. I don't know what that average fare would be today, but for journeys originating at Stranraer the cost per mile seems to be around the 15p mark.

 

[Greenback]

Comparable mileage Stranraer to Ayr is £18.10p off peak day return, the level of service is abysmal and the rolling stock very tired internally . So yes the fares are not fair.

I was at a SWESTRANS meeting a couple of years ago now, when a high ranking person from Transport Scotland stated the average fare per mile on Scotland's railways to be in the region of 11p a mile. I don't know what that average fare would be today, but for journeys originating at Stranraer the cost per mile seems to be around the 15p mark.

Indeed, when you compare the fares from Stranraer with those paid in other parts of Scotland, neve rmind the rest of the UK, there does seem to be an imbalance, particularly in terms of the poor level of service.

My point in this is only to state that dropping the fares would not help if the service frequency was abysmal, with trains nto running at covnenient times. Similarly, having better trains would not be much use if the fares were so high as to deter potential customers.

There needs to be a package of improvements to address accessibility, frequency, pricing, and ideally, journey times.

 

[tbtc]

Comparable mileage Stranraer to Ayr is £18.10p off peak day return, the level of service is abysmal and the rolling stock very tired internally . So yes the fares are not fair.

I was at a SWESTRANS meeting a couple of years ago now, when a high ranking person from Transport Scotland stated the average fare per mile on Scotland's railways to be in the region of 11p a mile. I don't know what that average fare would be today, but for journeys originating at Stranraer the cost per mile seems to be around the 15p mark.

We have worse units than 156s elsewhere in the UK.

Also, I'm not aware of any routes having cheaper fares to make up for the fact that the service isn't that frequent - should busy routes have to pay more for their frequent service to subsidise fares on the infrequent routes with few passengers?

 

[Greenback]

Also, I'm not aware of any routes having cheaper fares to make up for the fact that the service isn't that frequent - should busy routes have to pay more for their frequent service to subsidise fares on the infrequent routes with few passengers?

Certain journeys via the Heart of Wales line, with it's maximum of four trains a day, are cheaper than travelling via the Marches.

 

[merlodlliw]

Stranraer needs what happened in Fishguard to happen there. Fishguard recieved a very limited service to connect with the ferry only, but since Fishguard & Goodwick station (closer to the population centre) opened the service on the line is much improved. If they renamed Stranraer station "Stranraer Harbour" then they could build a new station called "Stranraer Town" here:
http://g.co/maps/grrem

Adam

The line to Fishguard extra services were the idea of the then Minister at WG,it was a political move get extra Plaid A,Ms,which failed,ATW were only told after the announcement,Plus it is only a three year trial, difference is the ferries still run from Fishguard whereas the ferries from Stranraer have gone.
It is up to the locals at Fishguard to use it or loose it back to two trains a day,which still occurs on Sunday in what could be the busiest tourist day in my opinion. We wish your campaign well.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Certain journeys via the Heart of Wales line, with it's maximum of four trains a day, are cheaper than travelling via the Marches.

Indeed, also the over 60s travel free in at least two of the Counties the HOWL serves, Powys & Camarthen come to mind.

 

[bailey65]

I would have thought that stranraers relative remoteness might be a good argument for retaining services it's a fair way out of glasgow the main centre of population.

 

[harz99]

We have worse units than 156s elsewhere in the UK.

Actually, I ageee that elsewhere in the UK the 156s are by no means the worst stock in use.

However, unlike the rest of the UK, those used within Scotland may have nice shiny paintwork, but the interiors have never, ever received a full refurb, only partial ones that involve recovering seats not new seats etc.

The fact is these 156s are now the tattiest, least comfortable stock in use by Scotrail, and do nothing to attract people from their cars to the train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Also, I'm not aware of any routes having cheaper fares to make up for the fact that the service isn't that frequent - should busy routes have to pay more for their frequent service to subsidise fares on the infrequent routes with few passengers?

No of course not. Neither should they pay less! Look at Glasgow to Edinburgh; off peak return £9.70 to £12.10 for approx. half the Stranraer to Glasgow mileage, double £12.10p to £24.20 for an equivalent mileage and that is still 10% less than Stranraer pax are charged.

Factor in the difference in frequency and on board quality, and as said before the fares are not fair, because the product is clearly not equal.

 

[D6975]

There are stupid fares all over the place - take a look at Cheltenham - Brum.

Roughly the same distance as Q St - Waverley, but an off peak return is £22.30.

In the other direction, Chelt - TM, again roughly the same distance is £8.20 off peak!!

 

[Greenback]

There are stupid fares all over the place - take a look at Cheltenham - Brum.

Roughly the same distance as Q St - Waverley, but an off peak return is £22.30.

In the other direction, Chelt - TM, again roughly the same distance is £8.20 off peak!!

Yes, as I understand it, this is due to market pricing, where TOC's compete with one another or with air, for example, this is usually leads to lower fares in comparison to other routes where no such competition exists.

XC, meanwhile, have opted to increase many fares on the flows that they price, but this is sort of understandable as the trains are overcrowded and capacity is scarce.

Then again there are other routes where TOC's seem to have given up on implementing any sort of fares policy, like Stranraer. Perhaps this is because of the historical reliance on the ferries, but the railway now needs to reposition itself in terms of the local markets.

 

[bkhtele]

4 passengers on the Stena Coach at 10.30 ex Cairnryan this morning, Citylink coach to Glasgow looked full. May need a Save the Stena coach by Autumn. In my opinion Northern Ireland needs a strategic rail link to Scotland & England. For the size of the greater Belfast population alone there should be a rail altnative to flying. I support keep the Stranraer line

 

[Bruce Warren]

There's a news item on the Transport Scotland website today that they are going
to be dropping the Stranraer-Ayr and Glasgow return rail fares during August and September
as a promotion.

It'll be interesting to see what happens.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

In my opinion Northern Ireland needs a strategic rail link to Scotland & England. For the size of the greater Belfast population alone there should be a rail altnative to flying. I support keep the Stranraer line

Aye, however the trouble with that is that Britain works off 4ft 8.5in gauge, NI and the Republic work off 5ft 3in, so unless you want to cost to soar beyond possibility, you'll still need a change, either at Stranraer or Larne. Good to see though, I'd fully support it; I think it was once proposed around 1900.

 

[Greenback]

There's a news item on the Transport Scotland website today that they are going
to be dropping the Stranraer-Ayr and Glasgow return rail fares during August and September
as a promotion.

It'll be interesting to see what happens.

This is to be welcomed. I just hope it is a trial, that it will be well supported, and that lower fares will be introduced permanently as a result.

I must be feeling particularly optimistic this evening!

 

[Bruce Warren]

From time to time a rail bridge/tunnel from Portpatrick to Larne is proposed, but
nothing comes of it.

Personally I suspect the cost of any such bridge/tunnel would far outstrip the cost of
regauging the track from Larne to Belfast to standard gauge.

 

[tbtc]

There are stupid fares all over the place - take a look at Cheltenham - Brum.

Roughly the same distance as Q St - Waverley, but an off peak return is £22.30.

In the other direction, Chelt - TM, again roughly the same distance is £8.20 off peak!!

Exactly.

There are generally always cheaper journeys (in terms of pence per mile) that people can use (when trying to make their local fare seem overpriced) - given the distances involved I really don't think that Stranraer's fares are very expensive.

Yes, cheaper fares would attract more people (just like on any line) but I think that the times are a bigger issue - if you had a more regularly spaced service to Ayrshire then I think that'd be more beneficial than cutting fares for the hundred-ish people who use the line to Stranraer each day.

 

[Greenback]

Yes, cheaper fares would attract more people (just like on any line) but I think that the times are a bigger issue - if you had a more regularly spaced service to Ayrshire then I think that'd be more beneficial than cutting fares for the hundred-ish people who use the line to Stranraer each day.

I still think it needs both an imporvement to times and a reassessment of the pricing strategy.

As an aside, are there Advance tickets available to encourage travel? ATW recently introduced these types of tickets for the first time from places like Fishguard and Haverfordwest to Cardiff.

 

[bkhtele]

I still think it needs both an imporvement to times and a reassessment of the pricing strategy.

As an aside, are there Advance tickets available to encourage travel? ATW recently introduced these types of tickets for the first time from places like Fishguard and Haverfordwest to Cardiff.

£16.10 single seems the best I can find

 

[johnnychips]

£16.10 single seems the best I can find

From Fishguard to Cardiff or Stranraer to Glasgow?

 

[harz99]

There's a news item on the Transport Scotland website today that they are going
to be dropping the Stranraer-Ayr and Glasgow return rail fares during August and September
as a promotion.

It'll be interesting to see what happens.

I think people need to read this news item VERY carefully. The way it is worded is ambiguous, it looks like it could be a promotion for travel from Glasgow/Ayr to Stranraer in that direction only - if this is the case an even more unfair fare!!

 

[HSTEd]

Aye, however the trouble with that is that Britain works off 4ft 8.5in gauge, NI and the Republic work off 5ft 3in, so unless you want to cost to soar beyond possibility, you'll still need a change, either at Stranraer or Larne. Good to see though, I'd fully support it; I think it was once proposed around 1900.

There are those talgo trainsets that can change between Standard and Iberian gauge on-the-fly as can be seen here. Apparently they have also designed mechanisms that can do standard to 5'3" (Irish gauge).

It would be obscenely expensive though, but I am sort of the opinion that this is the sort of project that should be pursued even if the business case is not the best. It provides numerous social and environmental benefits in both Scotland and Northern Ireland.

 

[bkhtele]

£16.10 single seems the best I can find

Stranraer to Glasgow

 

[PaxVobiscum]

There's a news item on the Transport Scotland website today that they are going
to be dropping the Stranraer-Ayr and Glasgow return rail fares during August and September
as a promotion.

It'll be interesting to see what happens.

The promotion starts tomorrow 4th August: http://www.scotrail.co.uk/stranraer

Stranraer Rail Travel Offer

Travel to Stranraer with our great value rail offer

Glasgow to Stranraer for only £15 return
Ayr to Stranraer for only £7.50 return

With these great fares, there has never been a better time to visit Stranraer. Plus, by taking the train, you can sit back, relax and enjoy some of the most tranquil valleys and serene coastlines in Scotland. Click here for more information about what you can see on the way to Stranraer.
About the offer
Which routes can I travel on?

This offer is available on the following routes:

Glasgow Central or Paisley Gilmour Street to Stranraer £15 return
Ayr / Maybole / Girvan or Barhill to Stranraer £7.50 return

Buy your promotional tickets to Stranraer

Click here to buy your tickets today. Promotional tickets are also available from staffed rail stations or by calling ScotRail Telesales direct on 08457 55 00 33.

When can I travel?

Outward travel is valid between 4 August and 30 September 2012 inclusive.
Return travel is valid for up to one month from the date shown on the outward portion of the ticket.
Promotional tickets are valid for travel anytime, any day of the week. (However please note that the connecting bus service picking up from Stranraer station will only operate on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays)
Promotional tickets are not subject to availability and do not need to be booked in advance.
Reservations are not required however customers can reserve a seat on reservable services on request.
Tickets are available to purchase in advance although travel is not valid until 4 August 2012.

Are there any time restrictions?

No, you can travel on any train within the dates stated above

Do discounts apply?

Children aged 5-15 can travel for £2 when accompanied with an adult who purchases a promotional ticket. Under 5s travel free on all ScotRail services.
No further railcard or concessionary discounts apply

Can I get a refund?

A full refund is available on unused tickets before the date of outward travel, subject to a £10 administration fee.

 

[bkhtele]

Was at Stranraer station about 9.30pm on Friday 27/7, last train had gone only a late arrival due. Very quiet station, clean and tidy has lots of potential, very sad:cry:
Only person around was a friendly drunk, didn't see any security, they have slightly improved access from the town. Leaving an abandoned scrap of land opposite the park. Should have made Stena plant it out as an extension to the park in lieu of planning permission for new terminal. Too late.

Was looking at old timetables from 1930's somehow they managed crowds of people off boat trains which arrived 10 minutes before the boat left. So much for improvements!

 

[starrymarkb]

Thing is Passenger Ferries are in decline. Freight is where the money is.

 

[Greenback]

Was looking at old timetables from 1930's somehow they managed crowds of people off boat trains which arrived 10 minutes before the boat left. So much for improvements!

No passport checks, no security controls, no computerised bureaucracy?

 

[tbtc]

Thing is Passenger Ferries are in decline. Freight is where the money is.

Yup - no Ryanair to worry about in the 1930s