Save Our Railway - Stranraer

[Tiny Tim]

I may have missed this, but has anyone said what Stena's reasons were for moving to Cairnryan? Is it something to do with the docking facilities at Stranraer?

 

[68000]

I presume it is journey time which in turn reduces operaring costs, Cairnryan is closer to the open sea

 

[Bruce Warren]

Officially it was to reduce journey time- that's certainly how Stena spun it but it's a falsehood in my opinion. It's to save fuel and lower costs. The journey is indeed shorter, but the new big ferries actually take 15 minutes longer than the HSS did.

Aside from my gripe with Stena I have one with the local council now. The public transport interchange has been abandoned. The money is to be spent elsewhere. Local people are celebrating because they think it's worth keeping the old station open for the one steam train we get a year. I think they are bonkers but it's all over bar the shouting.

 

[Tiny Tim]

I just checked the distance - less than 4 miles! Even allowing for the fact that a big ferry costs a lot per mile, it doesn't sound like a major saving, especially when the cost of a new ferry terminal is taken into account. I know it's too late, I'm sure people tried to persuade Stena not to move.

 

[harz99]

Officially it was to reduce journey time- that's certainly how Stena spun it but it's a falsehood in my opinion. It's to save fuel and lower costs. The journey is indeed shorter, but the new big ferries actually take 15 minutes longer than the HSS did.

Aside from my gripe with Stena I have one with the local council now. The public transport interchange has been abandoned. The money is to be spent elsewhere. Local people are celebrating because they think it's worth keeping the old station open for the one steam train we get a year. I think they are bonkers but it's all over bar the shouting.

A few things here.

Despite the hype from Stena the "new" ferries are in fact refurbished and altered existing vessels, and yes they are slower than the HSS but are a lot faster than the old conventional ferries they largely replaced. And they should be able to sail in poor weather rather than be moored up in Loch Ryan for days on end!

The reduction in journey time (excluding HSS) comes from the savings made not having to sail the last 2 to miles into Stranraer at the previous mandatory low speed. That may well save Stena money.

As regards the PTI; not staying in Stranraer nowadays I only became aware from reading the local paper today that the project has been/will be abandoned. I also think this is bonkers. I am not even sure that the ring fenced funding for the PTI can even be used for anything other than a PTI - but that's another story.

There is absolutely nothing to stop the existing station being retained, converted to a museum of sorts with the trackwork altered so that it is controlled by groundframes, and a new section of trackwork with a station suitable for normal use to be built on or near the former Stena Port offices/security buildings. Best of both worlds really.

Personally I am very dissapointed that one prominent local Labour politician appears to have completely changed his view, which had always been that Stranraer needs a proper PTI and not the hotch potch of bus stops and rail station being many yards away from each other that currently exists.
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The promotion starts tomorrow 4th August: http://www.scotrail.co.uk/stranraer

Also in the local Free Press newspaper was a news story about this "promotion" which it seems was primarily run because Scotrail does not intend to do any more than put the promotion on their website! The editorial comment was somewhat critical of this as well.

 

[bkhtele]

The reduction in fares is great I hope they extend it as I am planning to travel from England in the autumn and would rather travel by rail than Stena coach. There is still demand for foot passengers as shown by Ulsterbus' busy coaches from Glasgow.

Stena also said by moving to Cairnryan they could use larger ferries as the port was deeper!

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Stena also said by moving to Cairnryan they could use larger ferries as the port was deeper!

From talking to a chum who works for Stena, the shallow waters just outside Stranraer are the reason for moving to Cairnryan - as has been said, the distance between the two is small, but the speed of ferries in the last few miles to Stranraer has to be very low. Therefore the major saving to be achieved by moving to Cairnryan is one of time, rather than operating cost.

 

[harz99]

Well so much for promoting the reduced fare offering; on checking both National Rail Journey Planner and Scotrail's own website for fares STR-GLC return (or GLC-STR) tomorrow, the promotional fares are not showing - how stupid is that!

Or is it part of a cunning plan to show there is no demand..............

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Yep, I tried that too and got the same result.

Scotrail did put out a heads up to those on their registered email list - that's what reminded me about this 'promotion'. But it's not exactly a hard selling campaign.

 

[harz99]

Yep, I tried that too and got the same result.

Scotrail did put out a heads up to those on their registered email list - that's what reminded me about this 'promotion'. But it's not exactly a hard selling campaign.

Also re reading the earlier post quoting Scotrail's web page it does seem rather specific that the fares will only be offered for journeys TO Stranraer - if that is the case it'll do nothing to persuade more local people to use the train, rather it will inflame local feeling that the railway gives a very poor deal.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well so much for promoting the reduced fare offering; on checking both National Rail Journey Planner and Scotrail's own website for fares STR-GLC return (or GLC-STR) tomorrow, the promotional fares are not showing - how stupid is that!

Or is it part of a cunning plan to show there is no demand..............

Still showing on both sites as cheapest return £26.90p off peak.:mad:

 

[Penmorfa]

From talking to a chum who works for Stena, the shallow waters just outside Stranraer are the reason for moving to Cairnryan - as has been said, the distance between the two is small, but the speed of ferries in the last few miles to Stranraer has to be very low. Therefore the major saving to be achieved by moving to Cairnryan is one of time, rather than operating cost.

The larger vessels also allow them to carry more road freight, a market which I am told is booming. Loch Ryan port is also highly automated, as an example the ships no longer need a shore gang to tie the vessel up - it is clamped automatically to the quay, photo here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/penmorfas/7409878594/in/photostream

when arriving by sea it's a bit strange to be met on berthing by only a man with a cleaning trolley!

 

[kylemore]

Hope to take advantage of the offer later this week - the fare is not available from my station (Irvine) so you have to know to book to Ayr and then get a seperate £7.50 ticket at the booking office!
The website and presumably the ticket machine at the station will fleece you - which I presume must be the intention. Hopefully the ticket staff would have the decency to tell you about the offer if you just asked for a ticket to Stranraer from Irvine - or would they be told off for not fleecing the punter!?

 

[reb0118]

.........or would they be told off for not fleecing the punter!?

No of course not. If you ask for the split you will receive it! As there are so many permutations re split ticketing booking clerks would need encyclopedic memories to remember all options so TOCs do not have to offer them. Splitting may also add restrictions to the passenger's journey (time or route wise) and working out all the variances takes time which may not be fair to the people in the queue behind. NB splitting tickets does not necessarily result in a net loss for the TOCs as passengers getting a "bargain" are more likely to give them repeat business (in theory 2x a split ticketing scenario could equal more than 1x the throughout fare: the ratio could be less but due to the theoretical increased volume of passengers still financially beneficial). Secondly, the split may skew the revenue allocation towards the TOC in question?

Firstly, with regard to your specific journey, as Irvine is on the line of route from Glasgow to Stranraer, you would hope that the clerk has been briefed on the new promotional fares. You could helpfully email ScotRail and ask them if that is so. He would then be able to offer the spilt to other intending passengers.

Secondly, and following on from the first, as there are promotional fares from Glasgow, Paisley, & Ayr to Stranraer then why do ScotRail not introduce them from the intermediate stations on the line of route too? Again, if you feel strongly on the matter, you can contact them on the above link.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Or is it part of a cunning plan to show there is no demand..............

Cunning?? Seems blatantly obvious to me that's what they're doing

 

[bkhtele]

Since this is not an advance ticket, could you use it starting short?(simplification of tickets). not cheaper from irvine!

Ticket restrictions

Route
This ticket allows travel on any permitted route.

STRANRAER PROMO

TICKET TYPE
STRANRAER PROMOTION

OVERVIEW
Promotional fare which allows travel to Stranraer from Glasgow Central, Paisley Gilmour Street, Ayr, Maybole, Girvan and Barrhill.

TRAIN OPERATOR
Valid on ScotRail services.

BOOKING DEADLINES
There is no advance purchase requirement associated with this ticket. Tickets are available on a walk-up and go basis.

DISCOUNTS
Children can travel for GBP 2.00 return each.

REFUNDS
A full refund less GBP10.00 admin fee can be granted on unused tickets before date of outward travel.

AMENDING YOUR BOOKING
Return travel can be made anytime within one month from outward travel date.

CONDITIONS
Outward travel is valid between 4 August and 30 September inclusive.

BREAK OF JOURNEY
Break fo journey is permitted.

AVAILABILITY
Outward travel is valid between 4 August and 30 September inclusive.

VALIDITY
Tickets are valid for return travel up to one calendar month from the date of outward travel. Outward travel must be completed by 30 September 2012.

Route
This ticket allows travel on any permitted route.

 

[aylesbury]

Are the ships busy ,and what percentage of travelers are via the train?The road system from my memory is not good with narrow and bendy roads and not much in the way of high population.Wasnt there a wartime connection to the new ferry port ,if so perhaps the Scottish government could reopen it if connection to the ships is so important.In reality services south of Ayr seem to be not viable unless a subsidy justified on social grounds is available.

 

[swcovas]

The line to Fishguard extra services were the idea of the then Minister at WG,it was a political move get extra Plaid A,Ms,which failed,ATW were only told after the announcement,Plus it is only a three year trial, difference is the ferries still run from Fishguard whereas the ferries from Stranraer have gone.
It is up to the locals at Fishguard to use it or loose it back to two trains a day,which still occurs on Sunday in what could be the busiest tourist day in my opinion. We wish your campaign well.

Bob
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Indeed, also the over 60s travel free in at least two of the Counties the HOWL serves, Powys & Camarthen come to mind.

Only in winter!

 

[Penmorfa]

Are the ships busy ,and what percentage of travelers are via the train? The road system from my memory is not good with narrow and bendy roads and not much in the way of high population. Wasnt there a wartime connection to the new ferry port ,if so perhaps the Scottish government could reopen it if connection to the ships is so important.In reality services south of Ayr seem to be not viable unless a subsidy justified on social grounds is available.

When I travelled the route in June, a half filled Scotrail coach left for Ayr. The road is a lot faster than the train as it follows the coast.

The new port is known as Loch Ryan, it is about a mile north of Cairnryan and is brand new, there has never been a rail connection to it. To provide one would be hugely exxpensive.

 

[harz99]

Well now here's a thing; I've just been told by the Development Manager of SAYLSA (google it) that the offers ARE available from Stranraer, and have had some success from that end of the line.

It also appears that in various places around the web and on stations, 3 different lots of publicity all saying differing things are available! A shambles.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The road is a lot faster than the train as it follows the coast.

Not really; coach 70 mins, train around 80 mins. Road can be a bit quicker by car, depending on how many HGV's you follow at 40mph.

 

[Penmorfa]

Not really; coach 70 mins, train around 80 mins. Road can be a bit quicker by car, depending on how many HGV's you follow at 40mph.

To which you would have to add at least half an hour to make a rail connection at Stranraer

 

[merlodlliw]

Only in winter!

Strangely travel on the Bidston line between Wrexham Central & Shotton is free to the over 60s all year.

Bob

 

[harz99]

To which you would have to add at least half an hour to make a rail connection at Stranraer

Sorry, mental block when I wrote that - I was comparing Stranraer to Ayr by road/rail as in the "old" days. You are of course correct that another 30 minutes or so would be needed to travel from STR to Loch Ryan port if rail/taxi is used.

 

[clc]

Not really; coach 70 mins, train around 80 mins. Road can be a bit quicker by car, depending on how many HGV's you follow at 40mph.

The A77 isnt as bad as it used to be due to all the improvements and there are plans to provide more guaranteed overtaking opportunities including the long awaited Maybole bypass and other schemes south of Turnberry.

 

[bkhtele]

In my view the Stranraer line will struggle without the ferry traffic, and the Stena coach will struggle to compete with the direct coach from Glasgow to Cairnryan. e.g. for the 3.30pm the coach leaves 1 hour later from the bus station!

It would be really good if a solution could be found to provide a decent service for Stranraer area residents and those who like to travel to Northen Ireland by train via Scotland. Unless someone gets all parties to work together the line will probably be lost in 2 - 5 years.

 

[68000]

The problem here is that it is expensive to provide the train service to Stranraer and it is quite clear that the service can only survive with a large subsidy from the taxpayer. Is the Scottish Government willing to keep subsidising the line? I don't think it is therefore costs will have to come down and fare paying usage increase

It is a pity we can't dust off the RETB technology and deploy on this line from Ayr or Girvan

 

[michael769]

The problem here is that it is expensive to provide the train service to Stranraer and it is quite clear that the service can only survive with a large subsidy from the taxpayer. Is the Scottish Government willing to keep subsidising the line? I don't think it is therefore costs will have to come down and fare paying usage increase

I think the Scottish Government will be amenable to keep it going in the interests of the locals. Scotrail receives the most generous subsidy of any UK ToC so there has to be less commercial pressure on them.

The recent fare promotions is one attempt to improve loading and keep it viable, I suspect they will also be looking at ways of cutting the running costs on the line.

 

[merlodlliw]

I think the Scottish Government will be amenable to keep it going in the interests of the locals. Scotrail receives the most generous subsidy of any UK ToC so there has to be less commercial pressure on them.

Interesting point you make,TBTC throw up some data showing ATW being the most subsidised toc in the UK.

 

[tbtc]

TBTC throw up some data showing ATW being the most subsidised toc in the UK.

I took it from the BBC - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-15659301

According to figures from the Office for Rail Regulation, last year ATW received the highest public subsidy per passenger mile of any franchise across the UK

I think that "subsidy per passenger mile" seems the fairest definition, given the different size of each franchise (in terms of numbers of trains) and the different lengths of average journey that they all have.

 

[michael769]

I was thinking in terms of overall subsidy - £290m in 2010/11. Obviously Scotrail has more passenger miles given the geographical area the franchise covers.

While I agree with tbtc that the passenger miles comparison is a good basis, when it comes to being able to spend cash on a particular area the total subsidy received is I feel more relevant as a larger budget (even one subject to higher demands on it) has the potential to offer more flexibility in terms of spending decisions.

 

[swcovas]

Strangely travel on the Bidston line between Wrexham Central & Shotton is free to the over 60s all year.

Bob

Free travel on HOWL in summer would be disastrous. I'm not saying that every train would be full and standing but, for example, last trip I did on thurs 9 aug on the mid morning Swan-Salop loaded to 60-70 on the single 153 for most of the way. Imagine if the freebies were allowed as well. And this is not THAT unusual in summer hence many services are pairs of 153s or 150. Great to see it full!