SBS fail in Nigerian Hostage Rescue

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Butts

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Is anyone else puzzled by the reaction in Italy with regard to the SBS led failed rescue bid to free the British and Italian captives which ended in tragedy.

Anyone of my vintage will remember the old jokes about the "gearing" on Italian Tanks :p and have a silent chuckle.
 
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Schnellzug

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I must say, Mr. C seemed to have been taking lessons from the Jimmy Carter Book of How To Succesfully rescue Hostages.
Well, if the object of the exercise was to rescue tham and stop them being killed, it ... didn't seem to have achieved 100% success, did it?
 

ralphchadkirk

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No, I quite understand Italy's reaction to one of their citizens being killed in a failed rescue operation partly orchestrated by a European country without even the courtesy of letting the Italian government even know something was planned.
 

SS4

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I definitely see where the Italians are coming from. In these circumstances I always imagine the reaction if it were the other way around and since there would no doubt be uproar this can be put into the double standards basket.

As for the operation itself hostage rescue is always tricky and it's very dangerous. I'd imagine their death would have been imminent to try and rescue them by force
 

Greenback

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Yes, rescue missions of this nature are often carried out as a last resort when the hostages lives are felt to be in imminent danger. If the reports are correct, and the hsotages had been kileld before the arrival of the rescue forces, then that is what has happened here.

I totally agree with the Italians. Perhaps David Cameron and William Hague merely forgot to cc them into their email authorisation! Seriously though, as the Italians are supposed to be our allies in NATO, it is common courtesy to at least let them know that the go ahead is to be given for military action.
 
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David Cameron's and William Hague's rescue decision was arrogant, which is not surprising because that is what they are.

Presumably, had the mission been a qualified success they would have been strutting around the 24/7 news channels bragging about British superiority when it comes to getting the job done.

Now they have plenty of time to contemplate how to rescue our country's image in Europe.
 

Ferret

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David Cameron's and William Hague's rescue decision was arrogant, which is not surprising because that is what they are.

Presumably, had the mission been a qualified success they would have been strutting around the 24/7 news channels bragging about British superiority when it comes to getting the job done.

Now they have plenty of time to contemplate how to rescue our country's image in Europe.

Easy to sit in judgement upon that high horse when it's not you having to take the decision isn't it?
 

ralphchadkirk

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Easy to sit in judgement upon that high horse when it's not you having to take the decision isn't it?

And a basic part of making that decision is letting the Italian equivalent of the Foreign Office know that you're going to try and extract one of their citizens surely.
 

Ferret

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It's hard to argue otherwise on that first line though. Look at how they've subjugated the Lib Dems

Remind me, how many seats did the Lib Dems win at the last Election?! Like it or not, the Tories have the most number of MPs. Not that this has relevance to the matter at hand.

Apparently, Madge Wildfire thinks that she knows best despite not being privy to half the information that Messrs Hague and Cameron did. Quite a ridiculous standpoint to take, and one which I'm perfectly happy to highlight as such, as would anyone else with a modicum of intelligence....
 

Schnellzug

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Remind me, how many seats did the Lib Dems win at the last Election?! Like it or not, the Tories have the most number of MPs. Not that this has relevance to the matter at hand.

Apparently, Madge Wildfire thinks that she knows best despite not being privy to half the information that Messrs Hague and Cameron did. Quite a ridiculous standpoint to take, and one which I'm perfectly happy to highlight as such, as would anyone else with a modicum of intelligence....

What, you're taking exception to this? "David Cameron's and William Hague's rescue decision was arrogant, which is not surprising because that is what they are. "
Well, surely that's known to all, isn't it. Was it done because these hostages' lives were in imminent danger, or was did Dave and Nick see this as their opportunity to do something bold and decisive once again, like Operation Free Libya?
 

Ferret

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What, you're taking exception to this? "David Cameron's and William Hague's rescue decision was arrogant, which is not surprising because that is what they are. "
Well, surely that's known to all, isn't it. Was it done because these hostages' lives were in imminent danger, or was did Dave and Nick see this as their opportunity to do something bold and decisive once again, like Operation Free Libya?

Got it in one! I'd say the very definition of arrogance is claiming to have some amazing insight into a complex scenario despite not being in a position to be privy to most of the facts.

As for your second paragraph - only they know the answer to that. I just find the know-it-all mentality from somebody who demonstrates knowledge of nothing to be objectionable, especially when it involves using 2 men's tragic deaths as a stick to beat the Government with.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And a basic part of making that decision is letting the Italian equivalent of the Foreign Office know that you're going to try and extract one of their citizens surely.

Is it? I seem to recall the Americans took a different attitude when it came to dealing with Bin Laden. The less people who know, the less chance there is of the mission being compromised - for all we know, it may well have been a conscious decision to keep the Italians out of the loop.
 

ralphchadkirk

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Is it? I seem to recall the Americans took a different attitude when it came to dealing with Bin Laden. The less people who know, the less chance there is of the mission being compromised - for all we know, it may well have been a conscious decision to keep the Italians out of the loop.

Completely different. One operation is to eliminate a terrorist, and the other to rescue two European citizens.
 

Ferret

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Completely different. One operation is to eliminate a terrorist, and the other to rescue two European citizens.

How are they 'completely different'? They are both military operations which could be compromised by loose tongues. Like I say, it's easy to sit and criticise when not in possession of all the facts.
 

ralphchadkirk

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How are they 'completely different'? They are both military operations which could be compromised by loose tongues. Like I say, it's easy to sit and criticise when not in possession of all the facts.

And it's also easy to support it when not in possession of all the facts.
 

Ferret

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And it's also easy to support it when not in possession of all the facts.

Only I haven't been supporting it. Nowhere in this thread have I stated that I believe that they were right to go in. I just refuse to criticise without being in full possession of the facts.
 

Schnellzug

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Is it? I seem to recall the Americans took a different attitude when it came to dealing with Bin Laden. The less people who know, the less chance there is of the mission being compromised - for all we know, it may well have been a conscious decision to keep the Italians out of the loop.

That's showing great trust in your Allies, isn't it.
 

junglejames

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Had the Italians shown any interest up to now regards rescuing the pair? I dont know the answer, but isnt it possible that they hadnt shown any interest up to this point? Does anyone know whether they had or not, because if they hadnt, then why should we suddenly involve them. At the end of the day, we werent touching Italian Soil. All we were doing was trying to rescue 2 human beings. Considering one was Italian, surely it would be better for the Italians to thank Cameron and co for attempting to help an Italian out of trouble?
Had the Italians been involved from the start, then ok, its slightly different, but the fact Cameron never told them, makes me think they had little to do with it.
I get the impression the Italians are trying to point score and get one up on us, and come across as the poor hard done by neighbour etc etc.

As regards Cameron being arrogant in this attempt, and being wrong to go in now etc etc. He had to give the go ahead at some point. Unless he wanted to keep them there. In Nigeria their lives were in danger, so Cameron had to do something. Cameron obviously decided now was a good time, so wheres the problem? There isnt one. Whats different between now and 2 weeks time? Or 2 weeks previously? Nothing at all, and as i said, he had to do something. No arrogance. Just a case of having to do something.

Oh, and this comes from someone who doesnt exactly like Cameron, and has never liked the Tories. Perhaps I just dont go in for political point scoring, and can see the benefits no matter who is in charge.
 

ralphchadkirk

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Why should Italy be told? Because it's one of their citizens involved. Imagine the uproar if it had been us who hadn't been told.
 
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Remind me, how many seats did the Lib Dems win at the last Election?! Like it or not, the Tories have the most number of MPs. Not that this has relevance to the matter at hand.

Apparently, Madge Wildfire thinks that she knows best despite not being privy to half the information that Messrs Hague and Cameron did. Quite a ridiculous standpoint to take, and one which I'm perfectly happy to highlight as such, as would anyone else with a modicum of intelligence....

Sorry, I was in 'wind up' mood when I posted my comment.
 

Ferret

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Why should Italy be told? Because it's one of their citizens involved. Imagine the uproar if it had been us who hadn't been told.

Would we be having this discussion if the mission had been a success? Do we think David Miliband and Gordon Brown would've done differently? I suppose we'll never know:(
 

jon0844

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Indeed. There have been successful rescue attempts, and who knows what would have been said if they'd failed.

Maybe there's a parallel universe where this rescue succeeded, and Pacers didn't exist.
 

Schnellzug

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Just like the Americans did with Pakistan - who are supposedly one of theirs!

With no disrespect to anyone, i think perhaps Italy is slightly more trustworthy than Pakistan...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Had the Italians shown any interest up to now regards rescuing the pair? I dont know the answer, but isnt it possible that they hadnt shown any interest up to this point? Does anyone know whether they had or not, because if they hadnt, then why should we suddenly involve them. At the end of the day, we werent touching Italian Soil. All we were doing was trying to rescue 2 human beings. Considering one was Italian, surely it would be better for the Italians to thank Cameron and co for attempting to help an Italian out of trouble? .

Perhaps they considered that going in guns blazing in time-honoured gung-ho fashion was a pretty good recipe for getting the hostages killed, rather than rescued ....
 
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Greenback

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Why should Italy be told? Because it's one of their citizens involved. Imagine the uproar if it had been us who hadn't been told.

I can see the outraged headlines now!

Would we be having this discussion if the mission had been a success? Do we think David Miliband and Gordon Brown would've done differently? I suppose we'll never know:(

I agree that this issue should not be used as a weapon in party politics, so it's disappointing to see Milliband and Brown brought in to it.

With no disrespect to anyone, i think perhaps Italy is slightly more trustworthy than Pakistan...

Particularly since Italy are fellow members of NATO, a more formal alliance than that which exists between Pakistan and the US

Perhaps they considered that going in guns blazing in time-honoured gung-ho fashion was a pretty good recipe for getting the hostages killed, rather than rescued ....

They may have thought exactly that, they may have thopught it was an excellent idea, the point is that they were apparently never informed about what was taking place, neve rmind offered the chance to contribute an opinion!

We don't know for sure what the intelligence indicated about the danger to the hostages. I prefer to think that such a mission would only have been authorised if there were serious concerns about the safety of the hostages. What little evidence there is seems to support this.
 

Nym

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Either that, or Italy was informed and when it all went wrong, decided to deny all knowledge of ever knowing anything about what was happening in an attempt to save face with their own goverment?
 

Greenback

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Either that, or Italy was informed and when it all went wrong, decided to deny all knowledge of ever knowing anything about what was happening in an attempt to save face with their own goverment?

If that was the case wouldn't Cameron and Hague have said that the Italians were informed. rather than admitting that they hadn't been?
 
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