Scarborough to Manchester Vic direct services

[Darandio]

I notice talk of increased 'staycations' this year but in the case of Scarborough the hospitality side is as much constrained by capacity as the railway. In any year during high season accomodation in Scarborough is always near enough fully booked so there isn't going to be a glut of extra holidaymakers putting a strain on the service. If anything the holiday season may well be extended for a few weeks as people who couldn't visit in high season take a later break.

Daytrippers to resorts may well put additional strain on some resorts but this is unlikely to happen with Scarborough on the railway at least, not at £20+ per ticket.

If anything the resort is better served than ever this year in terms of moving people in and out by rail. Anyone who has been to Scarborough on holiday by rail will have experienced a Friday morning trying to get out of there on a single rammed 185, doubling this capacity on an hourly basis and getting people to York to spread out on to onward connections is much more appealing to me.

 

[37424]

Travelling on one of the first day's the 68's were in service in Aug 19 it was a very sunny Saturday, but despite that the 5 coach 68 was able to absorb all the passengers for the late afternoon return service even with the additional enthusiasts easily, while the following 3 car 185 service which I returned on was full with a few standing it wasn't rammed so unless there is a huge increase in passengers over pre covid years I doubt there will be a problem

 

[Richard P]

Had a look back at my timetable records and trains have run direct Manchester <> Scarborough for at least 50 years. Yes I appreciate we're mid pandemic but it feels like a very retrograde step not to run direct services. Plenty of people holiday in Scarborough and plenty of people go on day trips. Route learning I find hard to understand seeing as though 3 years ago this was taking place on the new trains regularly - frankly it feels like a convenient excuse not to run the services. I for one now won't go to Scarborough for a day out as my disability means I need a seat and I know from previous experience that they'll not be any seat reservations on the York <> Scarborough services and despite what many posters have stated on this thread these services will be busy to capacity - they already were pre pandemic. Not something I am prepared to risk - shame as it was an enjoyable day out but I guess that's "progress" for you

 

[SuperNova]

Had a look back at my timetable records and trains have run direct Manchester <> Scarborough for at least 50 years. Yes I appreciate we're mid pandemic but it feels like a very retrograde step not to run direct services. Plenty of people holiday in Scarborough and plenty of people go on day trips. Route learning I find hard to understand seeing as though 3 years ago this was taking place on the new trains regularly - frankly it feels like a convenient excuse not to run the services. I for one now won't go to Scarborough for a day out as my disability means I need a seat and I know from previous experience that they'll not be any seat reservations on the York <> Scarborough services and despite what many posters have stated on this thread these services will be busy to capacity - they already were pre pandemic. Not something I am prepared to risk - shame as it was an enjoyable day out but I guess that's "progress" for you

It's not just route knowledge retention, it's traction knowledge too. Covid procedures mean that training has been extremely difficult to keep up to date with - some TOC's are thousands of days behind on training. TPE is no different and it isn't a convenient excuse at all.

Of course if you have a disability you can book assistance and seat reservations. But to claim anything about 'progress' and 'convenient excuse not to run the services' is totally wide of the mark.

 

[mike57]

Direct services to Scarborough from points west of York were struggling way before Covid. Ever since the timetable change in May 2018 until March 2020 cancellations and really late running (30min + delay)were the order of the day. Some days nearly half services into or out of Scarborough were cancelled, with 2-3 hour gaps in service. As a regular user of this route I would rather change at York to or from a shuttle service that runs than the previous situation where there was an almost evens chance that the train would be cancelled or heavily delayed. Since Covid the relaibility on this route is now back to what it was in the early 2010s. My guess is that the shuttle will remain longer term, if they reinstate the through service and the reliability plummets again, which would seem likely, as the issues that caused the problems are still largely there then there will be huge local outcry again.

 

[Starmill]

I think it's more likely that the train would be retained as a shuttle to cut costs than to improve performance, but if it does both then its a no-brainer.

 

[Failed Unit]

Is the Northern service also dead in the water now? (Did it ever start)

 

[mike57]

Is the Northern service also dead in the water now? (Did it ever start)

I saw some limited crew training runs pre Covid, never in passenger service but its now gone quiet, may be one day. Currently capacity wise 1 5/6 carriage per hour is enough, longer term, who knows

 

[Richard P]

It's not just route knowledge retention, it's traction knowledge too. Covid procedures mean that training has been extremely difficult to keep up to date with - some TOC's are thousands of days behind on training. TPE is no different and it isn't a convenient excuse at all.

Of course if you have a disability you can book assistance and seat reservations. But to claim anything about 'progress' and 'convenient excuse not to run the services' is totally wide of the mark.

Training for the traction running on that line was taking place 3 years ago - I know because I saw it happening, day after day after day, it was relentless. As for seat reservations I'm afraid the answer is know TPE and National Rail have both confirmed to me the services between York and Scarborough will run without reservations so that's me off the list of travellers. Very disappointing but just about standard fare these days across most TOC's - I'm not one to consider I'm discriminated against but not for the first time I am disadvantaged through disability

 

[SuperNova]

Training for the traction running on that line was taking place 3 years ago - I know because I saw it happening, day after day after day, it was relentless. As for seat reservations I'm afraid the answer is know TPE and National Rail have both confirmed to me the services between York and Scarborough will run without reservations so that's me off the list of travellers. Very disappointing but just about standard fare these days across most TOC's - I'm not one to consider I'm discriminated against but not for the first time I am disadvantaged through disability

You may have seen it yourself but rail staff lose competency and have to go through that once again. I repeat, TPE like other TOC's have a backlog of thousands of days worth of training due to Covid - it isn't a convenient excuse at all.

Neither are you discriminated against, you can certainly reserve a seat on TPE services between York and Scarborough in June (I just tried to) unless these are counted places only, but if you book assistance rail staff will ensure you get a seat.

 

[Ridercross]

You may have seen it yourself but rail staff lose competency and have to go through that once again. I repeat, TPE like other TOC's have a backlog of thousands of days worth of training due to Covid - it isn't a convenient excuse at all.

Neither are you discriminated against, you can certainly reserve a seat on TPE services between York and Scarborough in June (I just tried to) unless these are counted places only, but if you book assistance rail staff will ensure you get a seat.

Yes, regarding seat reservations. I have return tickets booked via the TPE website to Scarborough from York nest month and have seat reservations on both trips.

 

[BoroAndy]

To be honest some aspects of the rail industry are pathetic. The pandemic has been an awful thing, but for route/traction training, you are putting together just two people, probably fully fit and not too old, with ppe. I am a taxi driver who has mixed with all sorts of passengers. I've stuck to ppe, ie. Masks, sanitising and common sense, and had no problem. To quote from my previous career, in IT, a new system development methodology, JFDI. I will leave you to work out what that acronym means. In addition, train drivers are paid very big salaries as are instructors, are they complete wussies or what?

 

[SuperNova]

To be honest some aspects of the rail industry are pathetic. The pandemic has been an awful thing, but for route/traction training, you are putting together just two people, probably fully fit and not too old, with ppe. I am a taxi driver who has mixed with all sorts of passengers. I've stuck to ppe, ie. Masks, sanitising and common sense, and had no problem. To quote from my previous career, in IT, a new system development methodology, JFDI. I will leave you to work out what that acronym means. In addition, train drivers are paid very big salaries as are instructors, are they complete wussies or what?

They're in bubbles working together in order that entire depots don't catch Covid. It's not possible for instructors to socially distance and the bubbles are a fair compromise but it means training takes longer as instructors are a finite resource.

But I'd love to see you at the negotiating table with the unions calling the wussies...

 

[XAM2175]

I am a taxi driver who has mixed with all sorts of passengers. I've stuck to ppe, ie. Masks, sanitising and common sense, and had no problem.

Out of curiosity, what's the longest time you've spent with the same one passenger?

JFDI. I will leave you to work out what that acronym means.

Funnily enough, in one of my previous jobs, I spent about three years managing a system implemented by a team that had taken the JFDI approach. The first year was spent trying to work around the mountain of incompatibilities and architectural limitations that had been baked into it, and then the latter two years were spent trying to replace it with a new system that would actually do what we wanted. Then we lost the contract that justified having the system in the first place and the entire division was made redundant.

 

[Richard P]

You may have seen it yourself but rail staff lose competency and have to go through that once again. I repeat, TPE like other TOC's have a backlog of thousands of days worth of training due to Covid - it isn't a convenient excuse at all.

Neither are you discriminated against, you can certainly reserve a seat on TPE services between York and Scarborough in June (I just tried to) unless these are counted places only, but if you book assistance rail staff will ensure you get a seat.

Just to advise three points here:
1. I don't need assistance, I am perfectly mobile on my artificial limbs, assistance is for people more disabled than me in wheelchairs for example
2. I booked reserved seats on a York > Scarborough return service 2 weeks ago. Yes I got seat reservations at the time of my booking but were they on my seats when I got on the train? No
3. If I book on the TPE website it will not allow me to reserve seats either between Scarborough and York or York and Manchester. It says they are available but when you book it doesn't give you the opportunity to reserve. Doubtless because they've absolutely no idea what train will make up the consist - I had to ring them to do that but still no reserved seats
Not all disabilities are visible but let me assure you if you had to stand for 45 minutes on a packed train with no free seats with wooden legs you'd feel discriminated against due to the truly abysmal travelling experience this is now
Hundreds of millions were spent on new trains specifically for long distance travel and now TPE have removed a staple of the Trans Pennine route yet run to the likes of Redcar and Newcastle where the trains are basically empty on arrival at their destinations

To be honest some aspects of the rail industry are pathetic. The pandemic has been an awful thing, but for route/traction training, you are putting together just two people, probably fully fit and not too old, with ppe. I am a taxi driver who has mixed with all sorts of passengers. I've stuck to ppe, ie. Masks, sanitising and common sense, and had no problem. To quote from my previous career, in IT, a new system development methodology, JFDI. I will leave you to work out what that acronym means. In addition, train drivers are paid very big salaries as are instructors, are they complete wussies or what?

My thoughts entirely - what an absolute shambles. Three years ago there was a route learner every 30 minutes between York and Scarborough 7 days a week with the new rolling stock. Where are those drivers now?!

 

[SuperNova]

My thoughts entirely - what an absolute shambles. Three years ago there was a route learner every 30 minutes between York and Scarborough 7 days a week with the new rolling stock. Where are those drivers now?!

Because you lose competency on routes and traction, as already explained to you. And due to Covid, instructors are in bubbles with drivers and there is a backlog of 1000's of days worth of training, as already explained again.

I don't need assistance, I am perfectly mobile on my artificial limbs, assistance is for people more disabled than me in wheelchairs for example

Not all disabilities are visible but let me assure you if you had to stand for 45 minutes on a packed train with no free seats with wooden legs you'd feel discriminated against due to the truly abysmal travelling experience this is now

Surely you see the contradiction here?! You're claiming discrimination (note: you're really not being discriminated against) but saying you're not disabled enough to book assistance? There are priority seats available on board trains and if you speak with the conductor or book assistance, they will ensure you get a seat. The travelling experience is also not abysmal as you claim - you're just not happy at having to change trains.

 

[BoroAndy]

Out of curiosity, what's the longest time you've spent with the same one passenger?


Funnily enough, in one of my previous jobs, I spent about three years managing a system implemented by a team that had taken the JFDI approach. The first year was spent trying to work around the mountain of incompatibilities and architectural limitations that had been baked into it, and then the latter two years were spent trying to replace it with a new system that would actually do what we wanted. Then we lost the contract that justified having the system in the first place and the entire division was made redundant.

Longest journey with same customer, Scarborough to Central London, 5 hours ish. But that was pre covid. Since covid appeared, probably about 1.25 hours.

 

[30907]

Just to advise three points here:
1. I don't need assistance, I am perfectly mobile on my artificial limbs, assistance is for people more disabled than me in wheelchairs for example

No it isn't by any means. As you say, not all disabilities are visible - and ensuring you are found a seat if something goes wrong is perfectly legitimate.

 

[notlob.divad]

No it isn't by any means. As you say, not all disabilities are visible - and ensuring you are found a seat if something goes wrong is perfectly legitimate.

Forcing or even excessively encouraging someone who can live independently to book assistance that they find unnessesary and potentially degrading, is really not the answer.

 

[mike57]

Now that the northern service appears to be on permanent hold we have a choice, York - Scarborough shuttle, which runs reliably most of the time, or a through service that is at the mercy of the Leeds Manchester corridor issues. Based on past experience the impact from the Leeds Manchester corridor is significant, one of the problems is that a late running servics tend to get turned at York to recover the timetable, and this means a minimum 1 hour delay getting into Scarborough. I have only been on TPE to Middlesborough once, and Newcastle a couple of times, and agree with an earlier comment that by their destinations they tend to be lightly loaded, unlike Scarborough trains which are busy until Seamer/Scarborough (for those who dont know Seamer is about 3 miles out of Scarborough and tends to be a popular joining point for those of us that live in the rural hinterland outside Scarborough). Also Newcastle and Middlesborough have other services, whereas apart from the Northern service to Hull Scarborough relies on the Transpennine service.

No doubt we will get what are given, but given a choice I would prefer the current shuttle, as the previous 2 years had been a complete shambles. I dont think the issues that stalk the Leeds Manchester corridor can or will be resolved, and when planning a journey I would rather have a reliable first/last leg with a change, and of course passengers for all other destiinations have to change in York anyway, so their vote will be for the reliable shuttle. I tend to be travelling on open tickets, so if I arrive in York and there is disruption I just get on the next Manchester train, it may not be the one I planned, but as long as I am on my way to my destination thats OK

Just to give an idea of the poor service when they were direct trains I have looked back at my delay repay claims for the 3 months October - December 2019, I was travelling to Manchester or beyond once a week, for a day trip, over that period I made 8 delay repay claims over 12 return journeyes, and that is apart from claims on Northern for a couple of journeys where their services delayed me. Roughly half my trips failed to get me to my destination within 30 minutes of the timetabled arrival, not a good record.

 

[BoroAndy]

Now that the northern service appears to be on permanent hold we have a choice, York - Scarborough shuttle, which runs reliably most of the time, or a through service that is at the mercy of the Leeds Manchester corridor issues. Based on past experience the impact from the Leeds Manchester corridor is significant, one of the problems is that a late running servics tend to get turned at York to recover the timetable, and this means a minimum 1 hour delay getting into Scarborough. I have only been on TPE to Middlesborough once, and Newcastle a couple of times, and agree with an earlier comment that by their destinations they tend to be lightly loaded, unlike Scarborough trains which are busy until Seamer/Scarborough (for those who dont know Seamer is about 3 miles out of Scarborough and tends to be a popular joining point for those of us that live in the rural hinterland outside Scarborough). Also Newcastle and Middlesborough have other services, whereas apart from the Northern service to Hull Scarborough relies on the Transpennine service.

No doubt we will get what are given, but given a choice I would prefer the current shuttle, as the previous 2 years had been a complete shambles. I dont think the issues that stalk the Leeds Manchester corridor can or will be resolved, and when planning a journey I would rather have a reliable first/last leg with a change, and of course passengers for all other destiinations have to change in York anyway, so their vote will be for the reliable shuttle. I tend to be travelling on open tickets, so if I arrive in York and there is disruption I just get on the next Manchester train, it may not be the one I planned, but as long as I am on my way to my destination thats OK

Just to give an idea of the poor service when they were direct trains I have looked back at my delay repay claims for the 3 months October - December 2019, I was travelling to Manchester or beyond once a week, for a day trip, over that period I made 8 delay repay claims over 12 return journeyes, and that is apart from claims on Northern for a couple of journeys where their services delayed me. Roughly half my trips failed to get me to my destination within 30 minutes of the timetabled arrival, not a good record.

Until Leeds to Manchester is 4 track, northern rail routes will all be very flaky. Maybe this project should be sorted before electrifying Church Fenton to Leeds and HS2 part 3.

 

[30907]

Forcing or even excessively encouraging someone who can live independently to book assistance that they find unnessesary and potentially degrading, is really not the answer.

I appreciate that, but in that case they need to take the risk that all travellers do, that their journey will not go to plan (eg standing for part of the journey because reservations haven't been honoured).

 

[CW2]

If they do ever decide to run something that is more than the existing shuttle but less than the hourly Liverpool - Scarborough + occasional Redcar service that was first planned, then I would suggest:
- Hourly shuttle Scarborough to Leeds
- Extends every third hour to Liverpool Lime Street
Turnrounds at Leeds would be about 30 minutes, so might need to shunt to clear a platform.
By making it every third hour, the working which goes west of Leeds is replaced in that hour by the previous one on its way back from Liverpool.
This would retain through connectivity from west of the Pennines to Scarborough, but targeted at key times of day.

 

[SuperNova]

If they do ever decide to run something that is more than the existing shuttle but less than the hourly Liverpool - Scarborough + occasional Redcar service that was first planned, then I would suggest:
- Hourly shuttle Scarborough to Leeds
- Extends every third hour to Liverpool Lime Street
Turnrounds at Leeds would be about 30 minutes, so might need to shunt to clear a platform.
By making it every third hour, the working which goes west of Leeds is replaced in that hour by the previous one on its way back from Liverpool.
This would retain through connectivity from west of the Pennines to Scarborough, but targeted at key times of day.

Don't expect much more than a shuttle for the next decade with TRU works. The advantage of the Scarborough branch is that it is segregated to platform 2 at York which means that for engineering works/blockades it's efficient to shuttle Scarborough than any other destination.

 

[mike57]

If they do ever decide to run something that is more than the existing shuttle but less than the hourly Liverpool - Scarborough + occasional Redcar service that was first planned, then I would suggest:
- Hourly shuttle Scarborough to Leeds
- Extends every third hour to Liverpool Lime Street
Turnrounds at Leeds would be about 30 minutes, so might need to shunt to clear a platform.
By making it every third hour, the working which goes west of Leeds is replaced in that hour by the previous one on its way back from Liverpool.
This would retain through connectivity from west of the Pennines to Scarborough, but targeted at key times of day.

I dont think there is much advantage in extending the shuttle to Leeds, platform arrangements at York suit the shuttle and there are plenty of York-Leeds trains. I agree that a few through services would be useful to people who for whatever reason find changing a problem, however Liverpool is not the best destination at the other end, Manchester Airport is far more useful. Airport passengers tend to have significant luggage, which makes a through service attractive, and for others on longer trips connections from Piccadilly are where you need to be. In an ideal world, perhaps 1 train early morning, 1st or 2nd train out, and one late afternoon, with balancing return workings. Thats actually what we had pre 2018, from memory first train out from Scarborough was Airport, then Liverpool for the rest of the day, and 1 or two Airports later on. But of couse Liverpool was via Warrington , which served far more useful places than the current route. Even Birchwood managed a small flow from East of the Pennines, owing to some major businesses in the area.

 

[Failed Unit]

I can see why the good people of Scarborough are not happy. TPE has served Scarborough as long as I can remember. In the 1980s it was:

Newcastle to Liverpool (loco hauled)
Scarborough and Hull - Manchester with the new 150/2

so to lose that direct service must be frustrating. Connections are great when they work. But extend your journey eastbound by at least 1 hour when they don’t. I have joined many services at your. It used to have a reasonable Leeds - Scarborough flow.

 

[Bigman]

What would be even more useful would be if Northern operated a circular York - Scarborough - Hull - York service.

 

[mike57]

What would be even more useful would be if Northern operated a circular York - Scarborough - Hull - York service.

There is currently one Scarborough - Hull - York service, but i think that is just to get things in the right place. However although it is a fair trek round people in Bridlington use it to get to York

 

[blackfive460]

The ideal solution for Scarborough would be TPE running though to Manchester/Liverpool hourly with Northern providing and hourly shuttle to York as was the intention a few years ago. Northern even ran some route familiarisation but other problems at the time put an end to that.
Now, with GBR on the horizon, I can't imagine that Northern will be interested in doing anything in the next few years even if they have the resources.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Well I'm just about to board the Manchester Picc to Scarborough mid-afternoon direct!