Scarborough TPE services from December 2017 Timetable change

[darylyates17]

I know this has probably been discussed before but does anyone have any more info about the TPE services to Scarborough switching to the Chat Moss line from December 2017 Timetable change I also want to know if they will call at stations between Liverpool and Manchester or go non stop like the Newcastle services do currently

 

[PHILIPE]

I know this has probably been discussed before but does anyone have any more info about the TPE services to Scarborough switching to the Chat Moss line from December 2017 Timetable change I also want to know if they will call at stations between Liverpool and Manchester or go non stop like the Newcastle services do currently

The details of trains are now available in Open Train Times. It appears the Scarborough trains will run via Warrington Central as at present and the Newcastles non-stop via Chat Moss to Manchester Victoria.

 

[Anvil1984]

The details of trains are now available in Open Train Times. It appears the Scarborough trains will run via Warrington Central as at present and the Newcastles non-stop via Chat Moss to Manchester Victoria.

I think he's talking about 2017 and not December 2016.

 

[notlob.divad]

I know this has probably been discussed before but does anyone have any more info about the TPE services to Scarborough switching to the Chat Moss line from December 2017 Timetable change I also want to know if they will call at stations between Liverpool and Manchester or go non stop like the Newcastle services do currently

TPE Semi-Fast services will stop at St Helens Junction and Newton-Le-Willows Between Liverpool and Victoria once they switch from the via Warrington Route. The Current Stopping service to Victoria will instead go to Piccadilly and extend through, probably to the airport.

The Unknown on the Chat Moss route for me is the new Northern Connect services from Liverpool and Chester. I believe the Liverpool - Bradford is due to stop at Huyton only. But I don't know about the Chester one. It would be really useful if at least one of these stopped at NLW/Earlestown to prevent a trip into Piccadilly and then back around the chord for Calder Valley connectivity.

 

[Camden]

I don't think the above is quite correct. While it will be some time before it is known exactly, I believe that there is a push to differentiate services between TPE (major cities), Northern Connect (major cities and medium sized towns) and Northern (all stops).

So two St Helens stops wouldn't seem right for the TPE, and my bet would be on Newton Le Willows for both of the TPEs as a midway stop between Liverpool and Manchester.

The stopper service from Liverpool to Manchester Victoria I believe will remain but be joined to the existing service from Bradford to Manchester Victoria, to simply create a through route.

The TPE that currently runs via Warrington is to be replaced by a Northern Connect service, which will provide the same level of service but as said above run to Manchester Airport or possibly Leeds.

The new Northern Connect service from Chester will run to Leeds, and will likely only stop at Runcorn East and Warrington Bank Quay.

The other services I think will remain as they are today.

 

[158756]

I don't think the above is quite correct. While it will be some time before it is known exactly, I believe that there is a push to differentiate services between TPE (major cities), Northern Connect (major cities and medium sized towns) and Northern (all stops).

So two St Helens stops wouldn't seem right for the TPE, and my bet would be on Newton Le Willows for both of the TPEs as a midway stop between Liverpool and Manchester.

The stopper service from Liverpool to Manchester Victoria I believe will remain but be joined to the existing service from Bradford to Manchester Victoria, to simply create a through route.

The TPE that currently runs via Warrington is to be replaced by a Northern Connect service, which will provide the same level of service but as said above run to Manchester Airport or possibly Leeds.

The new Northern Connect service from Chester will run to Leeds, and will likely only stop at Runcorn East and Warrington Bank Quay.

The other services I think will remain as they are today.

From December 2017- so when Scarborough trains switch to Chat Moss, TPE are required to provide 1tph at each of St Helens Junction and Newton-le-Willows.


By December 2019 (some probably come in earlier, but I'm not sure which or when)

Liverpool-Bradford is to be a Northern Connect service (and diesel), so one would assume it to not be a stopper. It is required to call at Huyton.

The Northern Connect Warrington Central service is shown on the map on the website as running to the Airport, and in any case can't get to Leeds as Northern aren't going to operate anything from Manchester-Leeds via Huddersfield.

Chester-Leeds is only required to call at Warrington off-peak, at peak times nearly all stations. A second Northern service to Manchester must be provided at Earlestown and Newton-le-Willows, so either the Bradford or Chester services must stop there.

Northern are required to provide 1 tph between Liverpool and Manchester Airport calling at Newton-le-Willows. It has been assumed that this is the stopper, as a) it's electric, b) it's not Northern Connect, c) it was in the ITT.

 

[PHILIPE]

I think he's talking about 2017 and not December 2016.

Sorry, a year too early.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't think the above is quite correct. While it will be some time before it is known exactly, I believe that there is a push to differentiate services between TPE (major cities), Northern Connect (major cities and medium sized towns) and Northern (all stops).

So two St Helens stops wouldn't seem right for the TPE, and my bet would be on Newton Le Willows for both of the TPEs as a midway stop between Liverpool and Manchester.

The stopper service from Liverpool to Manchester Victoria I believe will remain but be joined to the existing service from Bradford to Manchester Victoria, to simply create a through route.

That isn't correct.

TPE are required to replace the Northern Liverpool to Manchester via Chat Moss semi-fast and Northern are required to replace the Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington semi-fast.

Arriva decided to include an additional Chat Moss service which wasn't required by the ITT - if they run their other Chat Moss service as all-stops then the additional service will only have to call at Huyton for Arriva to meet the service levels they proposed in their bid.

Also the Northern Connect Manchester Airport to Cumbria services will have a similar style of stopping pattern to the TPE Scarborough and Middlesbrough services - express on the main line, then all/most stops on the branch.

 

[johnnychips]

Can anybody definitively say, "The train (or trains?) from Scarborough will call at A, B, C etc. arriving at X." or is it too soon for that?

 

[northwichcat]

Can anybody definitively say, "The train (or trains?) from Scarborough will call at A, B, C etc. arriving at X." or is it too soon for that?

TPE will have to provide a service which acts as a semi-fast on Chat Moss. We do know that won't be the Edinburgh service and we do know the Hull will the slow "semi-fast" so that semi-fast on Chat Moss will have to go to either Scarborough or Middlesbrough. (The second Newcastle service has to be a Manchester Airport service.) We do also know that only the "semi-fasts" will call at Satlybridge so the Scarborough services won't stop there.

 

[darylyates17]

I really hope they stop at St Helens Junction as that is my local station I am also hoping 185s will still be used then as I really like them and I will get to hear them trashing as my house is near the line

 

[northwichcat]

I really hope they stop at St Helens Junction as that is my local station I am also hoping 185s will still be used then as I really like them and I will get to hear them trashing as my house is near the line

Initially 185s will be used but once all the new trains are in service Liverpool will only get the new trains.

 

[Greybeard33]

TPE will have to provide a service which acts as a semi-fast on Chat Moss. We do know that won't be the Edinburgh service and we do know the Hull will the slow "semi-fast" so that semi-fast on Chat Moss will have to go to either Scarborough or Middlesbrough. (The second Newcastle service has to be a Manchester Airport service.) We do also know that only the "semi-fasts" will call at Satlybridge so the Scarborough services won't stop there.

The "Where Next for TPE" webpage, https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/where-next/where-next-for-tpe/, says:

13 new destinations served including St Helens and Morpeth added to the TransPennine Express network from 2017 and 2019, respectively. Both gaining new hourly direct links to Edinburgh, Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle and York.

So it will be the Newcastle/Edinburgh service that calls at St Helens Junction, not the additional Chat Moss service.

There is no mention of the Scarborough or Middlesbrough services swapping their western destinations, so it seems likely that the Scarborough service will go to Lime Street via Chat Moss, but not stop at SHJ. It might be possible for it to stop at Newton-le-Willows and still meet the franchise agreement journey time requirement of 38 minutes from Manchester to Liverpool and 36 minutes eastbound. Current non-stop journey times are around 35 and 34 minutes respectively.

 

[tom1649]

What's the point of increasing the number of diesels on a recently electrified line? After all the money and effort spent electrifying the Chat Moss it seems counterproductive to me to sacrifice the semi-fast electric service.

 

[notlob.divad]

What's the point of increasing the number of diesels on a recently electrified line? After all the money and effort spent electrifying the Chat Moss it seems counterproductive to me to sacrifice the semi-fast electric service.

The fast will eventually become bi-mode running on the wires across chat moss. The long term aim is clearly to have all the tpe services bi-mode or electric once the wires are up staylbridge to York. But I gather the predominant reasoning for putting the cross Pennie services across the moss is Piccadilly throat capacity.

For me the new franchise maps are beat seen as a stepping stone. Better to get the services running than wait on infrastructure that maybe a decade down the line.

 

[northwichcat]

For me the new franchise maps are beat seen as a stepping stone. Better to get the services running than wait on infrastructure that maybe a decade down the line.

That and DfT wanting TPE to run fast Intercity services and it's possible to run Liverpool to Leeds quicker via Chat Moss and Victoria.

 

[lejog]

By December 2019 (some probably come in earlier, but I'm not sure which or when)

Liverpool-Bradford is to be a Northern Connect service (and diesel), so one would assume it to not be a stopper. It is required to call at Huyton.

Chester-Leeds is only required to call at Warrington off-peak, at peak times nearly all stations. A second Northern service to Manchester must be provided at Earlestown and Newton-le-Willows, so either the Bradford or Chester services must stop there.

I assume the Liverpool Northern Connect service will call at Huyton only between Liverpool and Manchester, because the Northern TSRs specify only 2tph from Liverpool to Earlestown (presumably the Warrington Bank Quay and Manchester stoppers) and only 1tph from Liverpool to Newton-le-Willows (presumably the Manchester stopper).

However the Northern TSRs specify 2tph from both Earlestown and Newton-le-Willows into Manchester (a separate table), which I assume will be the stopper from Liverpool and by a process of elimination, the Chester Northern Connect service.

This is the minimum stopping pattern - Northern can choose to make extra stops if they wish.

 

[notlob.divad]

I assume the Liverpool Northern Connect service will call at Huyton only between Liverpool and Manchester, because the Northern TSRs specify only 2tph from Liverpool to Earlestown (presumably the Warrington Bank Quay and Manchester stoppers) and only 1tph from Liverpool to Newton-le-Willows (presumably the Manchester stopper).

However the Northern TSRs specify 2tph from both Earlestown and Newton-le-Willows into Manchester (a separate table), which I assume will be the stopper from Liverpool and by a process of elimination, the Chester Northern Connect service.

This is the minimum stopping pattern - Northern can choose to make extra stops if they wish.

Interesting you've worked out the northern connect is likely to stop at both earlestown and Newton. I wonder if this will be in addition to or instead of the Llandudno train. It will be very interesting to see the walls and border itt whenever it is eventually released

 

[BMIFlyer]

The timetable change will now take place in May 2018....

The Liverpool to Scarborough service will call at Newton Le Willows
The Liverpool to Newcastle (Edinburgh) service will call at St Helens Jn

The Newcastle train currently stands at Man Vic for 5-6 mins eastbound anyway if it has a clear run.

The '4 track project' Huyton - Roby will improve things dramatically once the 2 new tracks are connected and fully utilised. (See PDF)

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/requ...1127 109172 H ETR DRG MML 000012 Redacted.pdf

 

[notlob.divad]

Whilst I appreciate there are likely several reasons for this, what is the crucial factor in causing the delay? Infrastructure (chord works, remodelling, electrification) or rolling stock issues (delayed cascades, delays in new stock arriving)?

 

[BMIFlyer]

A combination of most of the above.

The new stock is on schedule so it's not that.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I should think it's Northern rolling stock which is the main problem, caused by late electrification everywhere (and none at all to Stalybridge).
TPE just needs all its 185s back.

 

[xtradj]

The timetable change will now take place in May 2018....

The Liverpool to Scarborough service will call at Newton Le Willows
The Liverpool to Newcastle (Edinburgh) service will call at St Helens Jn

The Newcastle train currently stands at Man Vic for 5-6 mins eastbound anyway if it has a clear run.

The '4 track project' Huyton - Roby will improve things dramatically once the 2 new tracks are connected and fully utilised. (See PDF)

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/requ...1127 109172 H ETR DRG MML 000012 Redacted.pdf

I thought Liverpool to Scarborough was changing to Middlesbrough?

 

[YorkshireBear]

I thought Liverpool to Scarborough was changing to Middlesbrough?

No i think the final plan is.

Liverpool - Edinburgh via Victoria and Newcastle.
Liverpool - Scarborough via Victoria.
Airport - Middlesbrough via Chord.
Airport - Newcastle via Chord.
Piccadilly - Hull semi fast picking up some local stops.
Piccadilly - Selby semi fast picking up the rest of the local stops.

 

[ainsworth74]

They really need to put in the two extra through platforms at Piccadilly don't they?

 

[IanXC]

No i think the final plan is.

Liverpool - Edinburgh via Victoria and Newcastle.
Liverpool - Scarborough via Victoria.
Airport - Middlesbrough via Chord.
Airport - Newcastle via Chord.
Piccadilly - Hull semi fast picking up some local stops.
Piccadilly - Selby semi fast picking up the rest of the local stops.

That's pretty much it, but:

There have been some comments by TPE about using bimode on the Hull route, which suggests to me that there is some question about the semi fast proposal (802 calling at Marsden?).

Piccadilly to Selby has only been listed as Piccadilly to Leeds since the franchise was awarded.

 

[YorkshireBear]

That's pretty much it, but:

There have been some comments by TPE about using bimode on the Hull route, which suggests to me that there is some question about the semi fast proposal (802 calling at Marsden?).

Piccadilly to Selby has only been listed as Piccadilly to Leeds since the franchise was awarded.

Hmm interesting... Maybe one wont stop at some of the smaller ones.

I saw that but thought i also saw Selby reinstated as they haven't got capacity to terminate the service. Suppose with the changes going on we won't know until we know!

 

[northwichcat]

I thought Liverpool to Scarborough was changing to Middlesbrough?

The franchise spec dictates where certain services start from and end e.g. Manchester Airport to Newcastle and Liverpool to Edinburgh via York is required. I think they had the option of switching the Scarborough and Middlesbrough services to be Scarborough-Airport and Middlesbrough-Liverpool if they wanted to but that didn't mean they planned to do it.

 

[northwichcat]

There have been some comments by TPE about using bimode on the Hull route, which suggests to me that there is some question about the semi fast proposal (802 calling at Marsden?).

A bi-mode will be shorter than a pair of 185s so maybe a bi-mode could be used on a peak time Hull service to reduce the amount of platform lengthening needed?

Alternatively, the reference to bi-mode on Hull services could refer to a long term plan i.e. once the Liverpool to Edinburgh and Manchester Airport to Newcastle routes are fully electrified.

 

[IanXC]

Hmm interesting... Maybe one wont stop at some of the smaller ones.

I saw that but thought i also saw Selby reinstated as they haven't got capacity to terminate the service. Suppose with the changes going on we won't know until we know!

I wonder if there is a creative way of pathing an all stops Piccadilly to Leeds and vice versa using the various third platforms and passing places on the route?

A bi-mode will be shorter than a pair of 185s so maybe a bi-mode could be used on a peak time Hull service to reduce the amount of platform lengthening needed?

Alternatively, the reference to bi-mode on Hull services could refer to a long term plan i.e. once the Liverpool to Edinburgh and Manchester Airport to Newcastle routes are fully electrified.

Will it be about platform lengths, are not 185s having automatic selective door opening fitted?

Bimode for Middlesbrough and Scarborough at that stage tho isn't it?

Thinking about it, perhaps this is about depot facilities. 185s as far as the plan we have seen go nowhere near York, and 802s nowhere near Doncaster. Given there will presumably be ECS moves for VTEC and HT Hull-Doncaster perhaps operational considerations are driving reallocations?