Scotland not keen on GBR

[MattRat]

TFW is about more than rail - it is, rightly, heading towards being something rather more like the 1980s form of national PTE, and all the better for it, too. At least someone is looking towards regulation.

And Westminster is always looking to pick a fight. I don't care who runs the service, as long as it's good, but some people in power can't see that.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

TFW is even more a can of worms. Scotland has far fewer services that cross the border for either side, and even then only to Glasgow and Edinburgh. I can see a lot of fighting between Westminster and the Welsh Government over say, Bidston to Wrexham, or Holyhead to Manchester.

The fighting will only be about money, and which government gets to pay the high subsidy (currently £2.39 per passenger km in Wales, £1.27 in England).

 

[PG]

Scotland has far fewer services that cross the border for either side,

True.

and even then only to Glasgow and Edinburgh.

*ahem* Aberdeen (LNER, XC, CS), Inverness (LNER, CS), Fort William (CS).

 

[MattRat]

True.


*ahem* Aberdeen (LNER, XC, CS), Inverness (LNER, CS), Fort William (CS).

So I missed a couple. Still not a lot, especially since CS is technically part of Scottish services.

 

[tomuk]

The fighting will only be about money, and which government gets to pay the high subsidy (currently £2.39 per passenger km in Wales, £1.27 in England).

And how much higher would it be without the trunk services to Manchester and Birmingham and all the stations and passengers in Hereford, Shropshire and Cheshire? Some people seem to forget its the Wales and Borders Franchise.

Not that it matters anyway because the article is complete nonsense as it says in the Shappps Williams report GBR will continue the existing setup with devolved administrations.

 

[PG]

So I missed a couple. Still not a lot, especially since CS is technically part of Scottish services.

Dinna fash its nothing personal, us up north like to remind folk that Scotland isn't just the central belt

 

[Starmill]

True.


*ahem* Aberdeen (LNER, XC, CS), Inverness (LNER, CS), Fort William (CS).

CS is controlled by Scottish Ministers, with some English consultation in a similar way to XC and LNER being controlled by the DfT Ministers, with Scottish (and other) consultation.

TFW is even more a can of worms. Scotland has far fewer services that cross the border for either side, and even then only to Glasgow and Edinburgh. I can see a lot of fighting between Westminster and the Welsh Government over say, Bidston to Wrexham, or Holyhead to Manchester.

And, unlike ScotRail, where you can't travel between two stations in England on a ScotRail train* technically the DfT haven't relinquished control of the cross-border and England - England TfW services either. There is just an agreement for them to be contracted via Transport for Wales because it is efficient.

* please don't try to bring up Carlisle to London as an exception, that's not ScotRail and is a serious edge case!

 

[matchmaker]

True.


*ahem* Aberdeen (LNER, XC, CS), Inverness (LNER, CS), Fort William (CS).

*ahem* Stirling (LNER)

 

[Clansman]

*ahem* Stirling (LNER)

And to be pedantic, Dumfries.

 

[MattRat]

And to be pedantic, Dumfries.

Join the pedantic club

 

[Roast Veg]

On another thread it was suggested that XC are not subject to becoming part of GBR in any case.

 

[Wynd]

Open question, but what is the story with NR being devolved to Holyrood (HR)?

Does anyone else find it strange that NR are not accountable to HR, when a large part of the network is within HR's remit?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

On another thread it was suggested that XC are not subject to becoming part of GBR in any case.

Why not?
It's just another DfT TOC.
It might not easily fit into GBR's Regional setup though, just as it didn't in BR's Regional days.
There are other misfits like TPE and Northern but I'm sure the Regional structure will work, if they could only decide what it is.

 

[Starmill]

*ahem* Stirling (LNER)

I don't think it was intended to be an exhaustive list? Otherwise Lockerbie, Dunbar, Motherwell etc etc needed to be mentioned, and also even Bridge of Allan, Dunkeld & Birnam and Carrbridge with their weekly stops.

And to be pedantic, Dumfries.

What does Dumfries have to do with anything? It was never served by Northern.

 

[Clansman]

What does Dumfries have to do with anything? It was never served by Northern.

The OP mentioned crossborder services only going to Edonburgh and Glasgow - not cross border operators, so no sure where you're getting Northern from.

 

[PG]

I don't think it was intended to be an exhaustive list?

Correct, I was just mentioning other terminus points that cross border trains reached North of the central belt.

 

[GordonT]

CS is controlled by Scottish Ministers, with some English consultation in a similar way to XC and LNER being controlled by the DfT Ministers, with Scottish (and other) consultation.


And, unlike ScotRail, where you can't travel between two stations in England on a ScotRail train* technically the DfT haven't relinquished control of the cross-border and England - England TfW services either. There is just an agreement for them to be contracted via Transport for Wales because it is efficient.

* please don't try to bring up Carlisle to London as an exception, that's not ScotRail and is a serious edge case!

At one time you could travel between two stations in England on a ScotRail train on Glasgow Central-Dumfries-Carlisle-Newcastle services. Are there no longer any ScotRail units diagrammed along the Tyne Valley? Is Carlisle-Dumfries on a Northern unit still possible?

 

[InOban]

I'm sure I read somewhere that through working will end in May. It results in a scotrail unit being stuck in Newcastle over the weekend.

 

[Falcon1200]

At one time you could travel between two stations in England on a ScotRail train on Glasgow Central-Dumfries-Carlisle-Newcastle services.

Those trains were unusual in that between Glasgow, or Stranraer/Girvan, and Carlisle they were Scotrail trains, but between Carlisle and Newcastle they were Northern services, just operated by Scotrail sets (but not crews).

 

[Starmill]

At one time you could travel between two stations in England on a ScotRail train on Glasgow Central-Dumfries-Carlisle-Newcastle services. Are there no longer any ScotRail units diagrammed along the Tyne Valley? Is Carlisle-Dumfries on a Northern unit still possible?

They weren't operated by ScotRail between Newcastle and Carlisle though, and they weren't operated by Northern between Carlisle and Dumfries, even when they were using the other's rolling stock.

The hiring of units is being unpicked from May. Doing so would be necessary soon regardless, to enable ScotRail to begin withdrawing 156s.

The OP mentioned crossborder services only going to Edonburgh and Glasgow - not cross border operators, so no sure where you're getting Northern from.

It was clear that the comment was about services under DfT control, so not ScotRail or Caledonian Sleeper.

 

[waverley47]

The cross border TOCs here are a bit of a red herring.

Obviously, nothing is going to change with regards to LNER and Avanti operating to Edinburgh and Glasgow. TPE and XC will continue to run to both, although there are likely to be some changes made there.

The majority of journeys made on the cross border TOCs in Scotland are cross border journeys. They will continue to be subject to pricing and through ticketing set by the DfT, perhaps with some ScotGov input.

The difficulty with intra-Scottish journeys is primarily going to be pathing and allocation of ticket revenue. XC are reasonably likely to cease running to Aberdeen, Dundee and Glasgow in the medium term, with services curtailed at Edinburgh. With LNER these services serve a useful function, and they will continue to exist.

Revenue will be shared depending on how LNER goes with advance only tickets. The only other ticketing issues are Reston, Dunbar, Motherwell and Lockerbie stations, for which what is currently in place will continue.

Apart from that:

Infrastructure will have to be devolved at some point to allow more integration and control from ScotGov. I don't expect standards to change north of the border.

Timetabling will still be joined up between the regions, although I'd expect a rejig of the north of Edinburgh services to fit any increase in Scotrail domestic services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The cross border TOCs here are a bit of a red herring.

Obviously, nothing is going to change with regards to LNER and Avanti operating to Edinburgh and Glasgow. TPE and XC will continue to run to both, although there are likely to be some changes made there.

The majority of journeys made on the cross border TOCs in Scotland are cross border journeys. They will continue to be subject to pricing and through ticketing set by the DfT, perhaps with some ScotGov input.

The difficulty with intra-Scottish journeys is primarily going to be pathing and allocation of ticket revenue. XC are reasonably likely to cease running to Aberdeen, Dundee and Glasgow in the medium term, with services curtailed at Edinburgh. With LNER these services serve a useful function, and they will continue to exist.

Revenue will be shared depending on how LNER goes with advance only tickets. The only other ticketing issues are Reston, Dunbar, Motherwell and Lockerbie stations, for which what is currently in place will continue.

There are international trains all over Europe and were even before the EU - it's not hard and it's not an issue.

 

[waverley47]

There are international trains all over Europe and were even before the EU - it's not hard and it's not an issue.

Exactly. I'm not entirely sure of the point of this thread.

 

[Starmill]

The cross border TOCs here are a bit of a red herring.

Obviously, nothing is going to change with regards to LNER and Avanti operating to Edinburgh and Glasgow. TPE and XC will continue to run to both, although there are likely to be some changes made there.

The majority of journeys made on the cross border TOCs in Scotland are cross border journeys. They will continue to be subject to pricing and through ticketing set by the DfT, perhaps with some ScotGov input.

The difficulty with intra-Scottish journeys is primarily going to be pathing and allocation of ticket revenue. XC are reasonably likely to cease running to Aberdeen, Dundee and Glasgow in the medium term, with services curtailed at Edinburgh. With LNER these services serve a useful function, and they will continue to exist.

Revenue will be shared depending on how LNER goes with advance only tickets. The only other ticketing issues are Reston, Dunbar, Motherwell and Lockerbie stations, for which what is currently in place will continue.

Apart from that:

Infrastructure will have to be devolved at some point to allow more integration and control from ScotGov. I don't expect standards to change north of the border.

Timetabling will still be joined up between the regions, although I'd expect a rejig of the north of Edinburgh services to fit any increase in Scotrail domestic services.

I really don't think that there's any issues with revenue allocation at all.

The only potential true sticking point is Lockerbie. If the DfT want to permanently reduce the TransPennine Express service that could be a problem. But even then the fact that they've come to an agreement regarding Reston suggests it's not really a problem.

 

[PG]

XC are reasonably likely to cease running to Aberdeen, Dundee and Glasgow in the medium term, with services curtailed at Edinburgh.

IIRC a previous attempt by XC to stop serving Aberdeen was met with such an outcry that they had to abandon the idea. Maybe they will eventually cease through a direct DfT instruction, who'd then have to square it with Holyrood.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm sure I read somewhere that through working will end in May. It results in a scotrail unit being stuck in Newcastle over the weekend.

Yes you did, there’s a post or two about it in the more general 2022 timetable thread here:

May 2022 Timetable Changes

The withdrawal of the Glenrothes - Kirkcaldy section and the ScotRail fast services between Edinburgh and Kirkcaldy is now showing. A permanent journey time penalty for Cupar, Ladybank, Markinch and Kirkcaldy to Inverkeithing, Haymarket and Edinburgh of 6 or so minutes. Particularly poor for...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[waverley47]

I really don't think that there's any issues with revenue allocation at all.

The only potential true sticking point is Lockerbie. If the DfT want to permanently reduce the TransPennine Express service that could be a problem. But even then the fact that they've come to an agreement regarding Reston suggests it's not really a problem.

Revenue allocation will depend on if DfT continues to use Orcats or not. I've heard rumours it's not particularly popular at DfT at the moment.

IIRC a previous attempt by XC to stop serving Aberdeen was met with such an outcry that they had to abandon the idea. Maybe they will eventually cease through a direct DfT instruction, who'd then have to square it with Holyrood.

The outcry was solved by rejigging the timetable to Aberdeen was served in the middle of the day, however the issue was a lack of Scotrail stock to run the services proposed for the cutting block.

Now that Scotrail has appropriate stock (hmmmmm), and given Scotgov's dislike for the voyagers, and given DfT's desire to maximise return on investment (read, reduce subsidies), culling XC at York, Newcastle or Edinburgh has been discussed favourably.

 

[Roast Veg]

Why not?
It's just another DfT TOC.
It might not easily fit into GBR's Regional setup though, just as it didn't in BR's Regional days.
There are other misfits like TPE and Northern but I'm sure the Regional structure will work, if they could only decide what it is.

I can't tell you why it isn't due to be included, just repeating what was said elsewhere.

 

[tomuk]

Revenue allocation will depend on if DfT continues to use Orcats or not. I've heard rumours it's not particularly popular at DfT at the moment.

What else would they use? Any replacement would have to work in a similar way to cope with the revenue split between DfT and non DfT (e.g devolved Scotland, Wales, Merseyrail, TfL? and open access) services.

 

[Roast Veg]

What else would they use? Any replacement would have to work in a similar way to cope with the revenue split between DfT and non DfT (e.g devolved Scotland, Wales, Merseyrail, TfL? and open access) services.

Have the individual TOCs absorbed into GBR all been amalgamated into one party in ORCATS yet? It would mean an awful lot less "clearing".