Scotland post-Brexit - what happens next?

[berneyarms]

I am not forgetting any history - but that was in a different time and different circumstances. I don't think there should be an assumption that the same would happen again.


I don't think the English do 'sensitive' very well, governing classes or not. I don't see Westminster treating Scotland on many ways much as Westminster treated Ireland in the second half of the nineteenth century. However, I may not be sensitive to these things!



I am sure that Scotland could function as an independent country. What it would be like is conjecture at this stage. (As, of course, a UK outside of the EU was at the time of the referendum)

While the CTA originated from Ireland becoming independent, it has since survived almost 100 years (albeit with a suspension during WW2), and survived the Troubles, which, frankly, stretched it to the limit, and that is not that long ago.

I don't see any government in these islands viewing it as something to bargain with or dismantle, and I really do think you are wrong about the practicalities of how any change in the relationship would work.

The CTA is nowadays viewed as an enduring element of the peace process on the island of Ireland, and I think all of the governments recognise that.

You're being very simplistic in seeing it only as an Anglo-Scottish matter should Scotland vote for independence, as it has far wider implications.

 

[etr221]

While this topic has been raised regarding Scotland, my thought is that over the next few years that will not be the only debate over the future of the UK: a 'border poll' over Irish unification is also likely.

And in the event of Irish unification (in whatever practical form it might take), then I do not beleive the CTA, in its current form, will remain sacrosanct - either from a London or Dublin viewpoint: in many ways it is unfinished business from Irish independence. And with Scottish independence in play as well, then I think all bets are off as the governments in Dublin, Edinburgh and London work out their border and other realtionship priorities. It could well be the case that Dublin and Edinburgh prioritise the EU (single market and customs union) and Schengen, leaving rUK (or England & Wales?) out in the cold, unless it decides to follow.

 

[RT4038]

While the CTA originated from Ireland becoming independent, it has since survived almost 100 years (albeit with a suspension during WW2), and survived the Troubles, which, frankly, stretched it to the limit, and that is not that long ago.

I don't see any government in these islands viewing it as something to bargain with or dismantle, and I really do think you are wrong about the practicalities of how any change in the relationship would work.

The CTA is nowadays viewed as an enduring element of the peace process on the island of Ireland, and I think all of the governments recognise that.

You're being very simplistic in seeing it only as an Anglo-Scottish matter should Scotland vote for independence, as it has far wider implications.

That depends on your view of how the situation will unfold in Ireland. The Brexit agreement has further nudged the six counties towards the Republic. The Unionist cultural allegiance is stronger with Scotland anyway. The English have very little affinity with Northern Ireland. Scottish independence would inevitably change the dynamics, and I foresee a united Ireland in the not too distant future.

E&W will then no longer have the yoke of NI border and peace process to act as a brake on their policies, and some of the imperative to retain the CTA will disappear.
This will, of course, depend on the willingness of the English to accept Scots and Irish people enjoying the fruits of England and that of their own country (inc EU membership) versus the limited opportunities in the vice versa. Bearing in mind the perceived imbalance of Freedom of Movement as a factor in the Brexit referendum result, I wouldn't take acceptance as a given.

 

[overthewater]

It seems certain views points on this thread seem to have Contempt especial to wards us fellow scots. I bet other few points like: All people that vote for the SNP are for independence, or everyone that voted for Independence wants back into EU, or etc etc etc etc Just like Brexit its one way or nothing.

As a swing voter I will decide, when the time comes which way I think the wind will blow, thank you.

I still believe we need a tory party with some MSP just so we can remind our self what useless and nasty prats they are.

 

[MattA7]

Although obviously nobody can be certain what the results of a second referendum would be. At the moment the desire for independence is slightly higher according to opinion polls so unfortunately it is certainly a possibility. That being said I think most people thought the EU referendum would be a remain vote but it wasn’t.

I’m probably one of the most anti- independence people you will meet and the whole idea of independence is concerning mainly as I do have strong ties with England and the thought of needing visas and being subject to immigration restrictions to cross the border horrifies me. I couldn’t care less about EU membership (I’m neutral in that regard) so regaining such status is no good to me. Loosing the right to live and work in England&wales however is.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I don't see why pointing out the obstacles that an independent Scotland will face translates to contempt for the Scots. There are obstacles, and concrete answers for them are never given.

Sad also that the concept of togetherness is being sneered at, especially when the Scots seemed to be in literal tears when we left the EU last January-"Leave a light on" anyone?

I get the Scots don't want the status-quo and I fully understand the UK needs to change. Especially after the COVID response, I don't think as an English resident, the overly centralised state we have now is in my best interest. Personally, I would like to see more English local council powers rather than an English Parliament although I think the latter is inevitable in order to create a balanced UK.

I also agree that devolved Parliaments shouldn't mirror UK parties exactly. It seems a bit rigid for Labour/Tory leanings to apply to any local electorate anywhere in GB.

People say they are annoyed that the Scot Libs and Scot Lab is not supporting a second independnece referendum. Could that be because they simply don't want independence? I mean, surely they don't have to support it.

 

[takno]

Sad also that the concept of togetherness is being sneered at, especially when the Scots seemed to be in literal tears when we left the EU last January-"Leave a light on" anyone?

The concept of togetherness isn't being sneered at. It's just rather difficult to take lectures on togetherness from a group that's just stopped us from being together with a lot more other people we value. If Scotland chooses to be together with Europe instead of together with the UK, that doesn't diminish togetherness at all.

 

[GusB]

That depends on your view of how the situation will unfold in Ireland. The Brexit agreement has further nudged the six counties towards the Republic. The Unionist cultural allegiance is stronger with Scotland anyway. The English have very little affinity with Northern Ireland. Scottish independence would inevitably change the dynamics, and I foresee a united Ireland in the not too distant future.

E&W will then no longer have the yoke of NI border and peace process to act as a brake on their policies, and some of the imperative to retain the CTA will disappear.
This will, of course, depend on the willingness of the English to accept Scots and Irish people enjoying the fruits of England and that of their own country (inc EU membership) versus the limited opportunities in the vice versa. Bearing in mind the perceived imbalance of Freedom of Movement as a factor in the Brexit referendum result, I wouldn't take acceptance as a given.

The "yoke of the NI border and peace process to act as a brake on their policies" and "the willingness of the English to accept Scots and Irish people enjoying the fruits of England" are certainly phrases which illustrate a certain amount of contempt.

You do realise that many English people choose to live and work in other parts of the UK and that it's not all one-way, don't you? Anyone would think that everyone from north of the border and across the Irish Sea was coming down to plunder all those ripe, juicy English fruits and give nothing in return.

Keep going, though - you're doing a far better job of making the case for Independence than anyone else here!

 

[berneyarms]

That depends on your view of how the situation will unfold in Ireland. The Brexit agreement has further nudged the six counties towards the Republic. The Unionist cultural allegiance is stronger with Scotland anyway. The English have very little affinity with Northern Ireland. Scottish independence would inevitably change the dynamics, and I foresee a united Ireland in the not too distant future.

E&W will then no longer have the yoke of NI border and peace process to act as a brake on their policies, and some of the imperative to retain the CTA will disappear.
This will, of course, depend on the willingness of the English to accept Scots and Irish people enjoying the fruits of England and that of their own country (inc EU membership) versus the limited opportunities in the vice versa. Bearing in mind the perceived imbalance of Freedom of Movement as a factor in the Brexit referendum result, I wouldn't take acceptance as a given.

I'm posting this in the context of your assertion that a UK government would endeavour to disband the CTA or force an independent Scotland to leave it, but I do feel the need to explain a few home truths here.

First of all, NI Unionists see themselves as British, and the loyalty is to the Crown, as opposed to an allegiance to England or indeed Scotland. Scottish independence, if it were to happen, would not change that.

As to the first line of your second paragraph, I can only say "wow". "E&W will then no longer have the yoke of NI border and peace process to act as a brake on their policies" is about as ignorant a phrase as I've seen in terms of what the peace process delivers. Do you not think that a sustained peace and the cessation of The Troubles, a horrific period of our history that saw over 3,500 people murdered needlessly across these islands, is something worth retaining? Just think about what you wrote for a minute, and dwell on that figure - 3,500 dead people. It really does come across as patronising and ignorant of what the peace process stands for, whether or not you meant it as such. It also smacks of total ignorance and disregard of British history when it comes to Ireland. This is not about a yoke around England as you suggest. It is about preserving peace and stopping the mindless slaughter of innocent lives.

While I do think that a NI border poll will be held at some point in the next decade, I'd not be as sure of the result. I certainly see a second Scottish referendum happening before any Irish border poll.

For a united Ireland to happen, and due to the polarised nature of NI society (especially among the working classes), you are going to need to be satisfied that not only would all of the nationalists vote yes, but that a reasonable number of unionists would follow that road too. NI is not like any other part of these islands, and has a society that still votes and is governed on the basis primarily of identity politics rather than bread and butter issues, including public health as we saw recently. That's changing, as can be seen by the Alliance Party increasing their vote share, but it is a glacially slow pace. Even allowing for that, while Brexit has certainly changed the landscape, I suspect that losing access to the NHS would be a massive pill to swallow for the NI electorate across the divide, and the GBP10.8bn annual subsidy that the UK pays to keep NI afloat would be something that the Irish exchequer would find next to near impossible to match.

Unlike Brexit, I don't think that the possibility of a 52/48 result for example would be sufficient - the majority would need to be big enough for that society to accept the change. Given the polar nature of NI politics such a result could also mean a significant movement of people away from NI to GB, given that a significant element of the NI population feel no affinity whatsoever with Ireland. It is far from simple.

Aside from all of that, I don't think that any government in these islands is going to want to stir up tensions by suggesting that the CTA be abandoned. Suggesting it smacks of English jingoism, ignorance of the wider implications, and frankly comes across as superior.

I also firmly believe that governments of the various jurisdictions will want to maintain friendly relations across these islands, not inflame it. What you are suggesting definitely would do the latter.

 

[Senex]

First of all, NI Unionists see themselves as British, and the loyalty is to the Crown, as opposed to an allegiance to England or indeed Scotland.

"British" at a time when more and more of those from the mainland seem to choose to define thmselves as "English" or "Scottish" or Welsh", if polling over the last few years is to be believed? And does anyone really feel a loyalty to "the Crown"—to a person, to an overlord by right of birth—any more? (The concept of a monarchy without a monarch, as St Stephen's Crown in Hungary between the wars, would be altogether different, of course.)

 

[Berliner]

I don't see why pointing out the obstacles that an independent Scotland will face translates to contempt for the Scots. There are obstacles, and concrete answers for them are never given.

Sad also that the concept of togetherness is being sneered at, especially when the Scots seemed to be in literal tears when we left the EU last January-"Leave a light on" anyone?

I get the Scots don't want the status-quo and I fully understand the UK needs to change. Especially after the COVID response, I don't think as an English resident, the overly centralised state we have now is in my best interest. Personally, I would like to see more English local council powers rather than an English Parliament although I think the latter is inevitable in order to create a balanced UK.

I also agree that devolved Parliaments shouldn't mirror UK parties exactly. It seems a bit rigid for Labour/Tory leanings to apply to any local electorate anywhere in GB.

People say they are annoyed that the Scot Libs and Scot Lab is not supporting a second independnece referendum. Could that be because they simply don't want independence? I mean, surely they don't have to support it.

I am not annoyed that unionists don't support independence, I don't expect them to one bit. I think it's disgusting however that they don't even support us having another vote on it especially as all 3 of them were anti Brexit at the start and the result in Scotland speaks for itself. It's the unwavering need to suck up to London, even when it goes directly against what the majority of thier voters wanted that gets me more than anything else. These parties would do better if they allowed themeselves more of a voice.

 

[berneyarms]

"British" at a time when more and more of those from the mainland seem to choose to define thmselves as "English" or "Scottish" or Welsh", if polling over the last few years is to be believed? And does anyone really feel a loyalty to "the Crown"—to a person, to an overlord by right of birth—any more? (The concept of a monarchy without a monarch, as St Stephen's Crown in Hungary between the wars, would be altogether different, of course.)

Can I ask have you visited NI at any stage?

Take the Belfast City bus tour, and a trip along the Antrim Coast and you will realise how identity works there as you travel through communities with different affinities. Identity is the bedrock of society there to this day among many. It is eye opening to say the least.

Amongst the unionist and loyalist population, it is very much a British identity and one of loyalty to the crown, as opposed to loyalty with Scotland or England per se. British flags, bunting, and paraphenelia etc. associated with Britain and the monarchy abound in most loyalist areas, along with red, white and blue kerbstones. The main roundabout in Larne has a giant 26ft tall steel replica crown in the middle of it, which is either loved or hated by the locals (google it!). The Orange Order (which celebrates the victory of King William over King James in 1690 every year on July 12th) is actually the Loyal Orange Institution - loyal to the Crown.

Meanwhile nationalist areas fly Irish flags and the local Gaelic Athletic Association (GAA) club flags, and murals abound in working class areas of both traditions.

NI society is still far from anything resembling what you and I might consider a normal, with paramilitaries still having significant influence, especially on the loyalist side if a recent BBC NI Spotlight programme were anything to go by.

Change risks destabilising the fragile peace that prevails there and that's why you will find reluctance amongst any government to change that affects NI one way or the other.

Oh and as an observation, as an Irishman - I will point out that there is no "mainland". There is the island of Ireland, which is divided between Ireland and Northern Ireland, and there is Great Britain which is made up of England, Scotland and Wales.

Maintaining peace on the island of Ireland will remain a core principle of any further relationship between the various jurisdictions. That's why Scottish independence and the framework around is not as isolated as it might seem.

 

[takno]

I am not annoyed that unionists don't support independence, I don't expect them to one bit. I think it's disgusting however that they don't even support us having another vote on it especially as all 3 of them were anti Brexit at the start and the result in Scotland speaks for itself. It's the unwavering need to suck up to London, even when it goes directly against what the majority of thier voters wanted that gets me more than anything else. These parties would do better if they allowed themeselves more of a voice.

Disgusting is a rather strong word. It was always inevitable that the Tories were going to take that approach, and I suspect it suits a solid majority of their voters very well indeed. I think the Labour Party would have been better off post-referendum taking a neutral stance on it - at the very least it would have better aligned with their membership which is fairly dvided on the issue. Sadly it was an area where senior figures were far too willing to be baited by the Tories, and got suckered into the fake narrative that "who's the biggest defender of the union" was the defining question at the last election.

There isn't any "sucking up to London" involved in either party though. The people pushing the pro-union policies hold a perfectly reasonable and sincere belief that unionism is the right approach for Scotland, and for the most part would rather Westminster kept their nose out of the discussion altogether.

To me it's frustrating because there isn't a "fair" way to decide if we have a referendum - the last one, which we probably shouldn't have had, was lost fair and square, and unless you think that public opinion is inexorably and for all time moving in one direction then you can't just keep holding them until one tips over the line. It's not like we're going to keep holding a referendum every 5 years about rejoining the union if we do become independent after all. Mostly though I think it's a crying shame that we can't select a government that could competently run the country because every election has been turned into a proxy referendum on whether we have a referendum. Democracy is too important to get constantly tied up in single-issue shenanigans.

 

[eoff]

I am not annoyed that unionists don't support independence, I don't expect them to one bit. I think it's disgusting however that they don't even support us having another vote on it especially as all 3 of them were anti Brexit at the start and the result in Scotland speaks for itself. It's the unwavering need to suck up to London, even when it goes directly against what the majority of thier voters wanted that gets me more than anything else. These parties would do better if they allowed themeselves more of a voice.

The once in a generation referendum was against independence even though a yes vote was the best way for Scots to stay in the EU given that the SNP said this was going to happen in a short time and Brexit was very much a future possibility at that time.

 

[mcmad]

I won't deny that the site I quoted from has an obvious bias; it's a pro-independence site, after all. That's why I posted the the link to the sources which back it up.

Its far from an independent piece though and the sources have been picked to suit the narrative. Sadly a truly independent analysis can't exist doesn't exist as those organisations who are independent rightly don't want to get mixed up in internal politics so you are left with an uninformed choice between project fear and project grass is greener.

 

[overthewater]

Trouble is there is a 4 way spilt with everyone in Scotland, you will fall into one of the following

Brexit first- Scot indie second

YES YES
YES No
No Yes
NO NO

The point is the arguments are getting so fragmented that coalitions for one side dont all match up on different view points.

Its strange the issues of Scottish Independent only ever appears with the Tories are in power in Westminster, that makes since they never won an election up here since 1955 ( that was only because A: lid dems never stood) I bet if Labour had won the 2017 or 2019 election, it would have died down for another 10 years.

This is the BIG Q: Do you vote for something because you hate Tories that much, even if it not the best idea. Simple answer is yes.

NO ONE can say, staying with Westminster or going it alone and with getting back into EU or staying out of the EU is right approach for Scotland because NO ONE KNOWS.

 

[Starmill]

One big benefit to Scotland joining the European customs union would be that the customs border between Scotland and Northern Ireland would come down, along with everywhere else near Scotland, including Iceland, Norway, Ireland etc, except for England and Wales. The customs border has to go somewhere, putting it on the land border between England and Scotland may well be their best choice.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

One big benefit to Scotland joining the European customs union would be that the customs border between Scotland and Northern Ireland would come down, along with everywhere else near Scotland, including Iceland, Norway, Ireland etc, except for England and Wales. The customs border has to go somewhere, putting it on the land border between England and Scotland may well be their best choice.

Even with all the trade that would be disrupted through the border?

 

[Starmill]

Even with all the trade that would be disrupted through the border?

Yes? Same as trade today between Scotland and Northern Ireland, and the rest of the Customs Union.

 

[XAM2175]

I’m probably one of the most anti- independence people you will meet and the whole idea of independence is concerning mainly as I do have strong ties with England and the thought of needing visas and being subject to immigration restrictions to cross the border horrifies me. I couldn’t care less about EU membership (I’m neutral in that regard) so regaining such status is no good to me. Loosing the right to live and work in England&wales however is.

Your concerns are coming from a very reasonable position but based on the "prospectus" as it were I don't think you need to be losing too much sleep - Scottish independence will create a new Scottish citizenship but it won't deprive anybody already of British citizenship they already hold, so you'll still have the full rights and privileges to entry and employment in England and Wales, and indeed also Northern Ireland and Ireland.

Further, if (as appears probable) Scotland is allowed to participate in the Common Travel Area as currently exists between the UK, Ireland, Isle of Man, and the Channel Islands, neither British, nor Irish, nor Scottish citizens will be subject to routine immigration controls to travel between Scotland and the rest of the CTA - much the same as current arrangements for travel from England to Ireland today, for example.

 

[mcmad]

In many ways the Scottish independence debate is a mirror of the brexit one, are we better maintaining a union with our closest neighbour and biggest trading partner but being tied politically to a larger entities will or break those links, accept the potential consequencies but be able to set our own course (if staying out of the EU).

I'm still waiting (in the wider sense, not on here) for an answer to where the money will come from. All the talk above around energy is a red herring as all that renewable energy generated by private companies mostly foreign owned.

 

[Butts]

Can I ask have you visited NI at any stage?

Take the Belfast City bus tour, and a trip along the Antrim Coast and you will realise how identity works there as you travel through communities with different affinities. Identity is the bedrock of society there to this day among many. It is eye opening to say the least.

Amongst the unionist and loyalist population, it is very much a British identity and one of loyalty to the crown, as opposed to loyalty with Scotland or England per se. British flags, bunting, and paraphenelia etc. associated with Britain and the monarchy abound in most loyalist areas, along with red, white and blue kerbstones. The main roundabout in Larne has a giant 26ft tall steel replica crown in the middle of it, which is either loved or hated by the locals (google it!). The Orange Order (which celebrates the victory of King William over King James in 1690 every year on July 12th) is actually the Loyal Orange Institution - loyal to the Crown.

Meanwhile nationalist areas fly Irish flags and the local Gaelic Athletic Association (GAA) club flags, and murals abound in working class areas of both traditions.

NI society is still far from anything resembling what you and I might consider a normal, with paramilitaries still having significant influence, especially on the loyalist side if a recent BBC NI Spotlight programme were anything to go by.

Change risks destabilising the fragile peace that prevails there and that's why you will find reluctance amongst any government to change that affects NI one way or the other.

Oh and as an observation, as an Irishman - I will point out that there is no "mainland". There is the island of Ireland, which is divided between Ireland and Northern Ireland, and there is Great Britain which is made up of England, Scotland and Wales.

Maintaining peace on the island of Ireland will remain a core principle of any further relationship between the various jurisdictions. That's why Scottish independence and the framework around is not as isolated as it might seem.

I have been to Northern Ireland on many occasions since the 1980's.

From my experience the problems are/were predominately in the "working class areas" where people are unable or unwilling to think for themselves and challenge the ruling orthodoxy.

In Middle Class areas Catholics and Protestants live side by side in professional enclaves without any problems.

 

[RT4038]

I'm posting this in the context of your assertion that a UK government would endeavour to disband the CTA or force an independent Scotland to leave it, but I do feel the need to explain a few home truths here.

First of all, NI Unionists see themselves as British, and the loyalty is to the Crown, as opposed to an allegiance to England or indeed Scotland. Scottish independence, if it were to happen, would not change that.

As to the first line of your second paragraph, I can only say "wow". "E&W will then no longer have the yoke of NI border and peace process to act as a brake on their policies" is about as ignorant a phrase as I've seen in terms of what the peace process delivers. Do you not think that a sustained peace and the cessation of The Troubles, a horrific period of our history that saw over 3,500 people murdered needlessly across these islands, is something worth retaining? Just think about what you wrote for a minute, and dwell on that figure - 3,500 dead people. It really does come across as patronising and ignorant of what the peace process stands for, whether or not you meant it as such. It also smacks of total ignorance and disregard of British history when it comes to Ireland. This is not about a yoke around England as you suggest. It is about preserving peace and stopping the mindless slaughter of innocent lives.

While I do think that a NI border poll will be held at some point in the next decade, I'd not be as sure of the result. I certainly see a second Scottish referendum happening before any Irish border poll.



Aside from all of that, I don't think that any government in these islands is going to want to stir up tensions by suggesting that the CTA be abandoned. Suggesting it smacks of English jingoism, ignorance of the wider implications, and frankly comes across as superior.

I also firmly believe that governments of the various jurisdictions will want to maintain friendly relations across these islands, not inflame it. What you are suggesting definitely would do the latter.

Sorry, but calling me patronising and ignorant is not going to suppress these issues away. English people generally see the 3,500 deaths as an Irish problem that would cease to be their problem if Ireland was re-united. Whether that is true or not is another matter. The amount of arguing about the Irish border during the Brexit process, and the compromises made, plus the £10+ billion a year used to prop up the NI economy is quite likely to be seen as a yoke.

Assuming that the CTA (or at least the employment rights of the CTA) would survive intact on the grounds of stopping the mindless slaughter of innocent Irish lives could be the same wishful thinking as the Brexiteers had of the EU gagging for a free trade deal on any terms. Independence on terms of no advantage to E&W people may set all sorts of hares running.

Brexiteers were/are frequently called patronising and ignorant - didn't stop that happening either. Better we keep posts civil and not take slight at expression of opposing views, but rather have robust debate.

 

[Cowley]

Sorry, but calling me patronising and ignorant is not going to suppress these issues away. English people generally see the 3,500 deaths as an Irish problem that would cease to be their problem if Ireland was re-united. Whether that is true or not is another matter. The amount of arguing about the Irish border during the Brexit process, and the compromises made, plus the £10+ billion a year used to prop up the NI economy is quite likely to be seen as a yoke.

Assuming that the CTA (or at least the employment rights of the CTA) would survive intact on the grounds of stopping the mindless slaughter of innocent Irish lives could be the same wishful thinking as the Brexiteers had of the EU gagging for a free trade deal on any terms. Independence on terms of no advantage to E&W people may set all sorts of hares running.

Brexiteers were/are frequently called patronising and ignorant - didn't stop that happening either. Better we keep posts civil and not take slight at expression of opposing views, but rather have robust debate.

On that note I’d urge everyone to take a small step back and listen to what the others are saying and take it on board before retaliating.
You may not agree but it’s good to try and see it from the opposing point of view before getting angry and bashing out a reply...
It’s an emotive subject and we need to understand each other’s thoughts in all of this if we’re ever going to get anywhere in my opinion.

Laying into each other won’t achieve anything.

Thanks everyone.

 

[radamfi]

Although I now have an Irish passport which I now consider more valuable than my UK one, I am essentially both English and British, and there's no way I'd give up my UK citizenship.

So you don't have to worry about losing your free movement to the EU. What about those Scots who want it back?

 

[Chester1]

Your concerns are coming from a very reasonable position but based on the "prospectus" as it were I don't think you need to be losing too much sleep - Scottish independence will create a new Scottish citizenship but it won't deprive anybody already of British citizenship they already hold, so you'll still have the full rights and privileges to entry and employment in England and Wales, and indeed also Northern Ireland and Ireland.

Further, if (as appears probable) Scotland is allowed to participate in the Common Travel Area as currently exists between the UK, Ireland, Isle of Man, and the Channel Islands, neither British, nor Irish, nor Scottish citizens will be subject to routine immigration controls to travel between Scotland and the rest of the CTA - much the same as current arrangements for travel from England to Ireland today, for example.

British citizenship will eventually be replaced once Britain as a state no longer exists. Countries have their own Citizenship and I don't know why Scots think they would be an exception to this with their whole population 5.5 million people permanently having citizenship of the neighbouring state while also having their own. If Scotland leaving causes further break up then without doubt British Citizenship will disappear entirely. Russian citizenship and Soviet Citizenship is a good example. England and Wales would want their own Citizenship and the best Irish Unionists would get is a British National Overseas (Hong Konger) style travel document issued by England.

The CTA is passportless travel as well as immigration. I would expect the former to disappear in time but for the latter to stay. England will want the benefits of some passport checks where customs checks are taking place and a United Ireland and Scotland will both eventually join Schengen. I very much doubt the FOM between all parts of Britain and Ireland would end but its possible.

 

[Journeyman]

So you don't have to worry about losing your free movement to the EU. What about those Scots who want it back?

I completely understand that, but what if we lose freedom of movement to rUK in the process?

 

[radamfi]

I completely understand that, but what if we lose freedom of movement to rUK in the process?

I highly doubt that's going to happen. There are far too many Scottish people in England and vice versa.

 

[RT4038]

I highly doubt that's going to happen. There are far too many Scottish people in England and vice versa.

Well I guess it could happen in the same way as has happened to other EU citizens in the UK / UK citizens in the rest of the EU, at Brexit. Highly unlikely to affect visiting, but employment rights I'm not so sure.

 

[radamfi]

Well I guess it could happen in the same way as has happened to other EU citizens in the UK / UK citizens in the rest of the EU, at Brexit. Highly unlikely to affect visiting, but employment rights I'm not so sure.

No change to free movement between England and Ireland despite Irish independence and Brexit. Scotland is even less likely than Ireland to lose free movement with England given the even closer ties.