• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Scotland votes no to Independence

Status
Not open for further replies.

Oswyntail

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2009
Messages
4,183
Location
Yorkshire
.... If you have a problem with a party representing a country
That is a very interesting slip - at least i hope it is. The "party" does not represent anyone - it is the elected representatives that represent their constituency at Westminster. It should be that the party is irrelevant at that stage, as the views the MP expresses should be those of the constituents, which may, of course, deviate from party lines on some issues.
.... with only 45% of the vote, you should find the idea of Labour or the Tories governing the whole UK with less than that to be even more repulsive.
I think "repulsive" is an over-emotive term that perhaps hides uncertainty. If there were only two parties involved, then, yes, "winning" with 45% would be enough to raise an eyebrow. However, with many parties involved, lower percentages are what one would expect (even if the representation is actually biased in favour of Labour). I suspect the "we are governed by a party we never voted for" is little more than the childish sulk of one who cries "me" loudly. To me what it means is that the representatives one elected have not effectively taken part in the mechanisms of holding the government to account, sometimes by simply not attending Parliament, or, more often, by replacing debate and discussion with party points or, if those run out, by heckling.
If only our elected representatives could represent us and not their party the country would be a better place.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

St Rollox

Member
Joined
2 Jun 2013
Messages
650
Suppose in the end it depends on what passes for democracy.
See 1979 Scottish Assembly referendum.
Don't think it was ever tried before or since.
Certainly wasn't democracy as most folks know it.
And the good old Labour Party passed it.
They must got mixed up with the real world on one hand and their internal politics on the other.
 

GaryMcEwan

Established Member
Joined
20 Aug 2013
Messages
1,604
Location
Bridgeton, Glasgow
So St Rollox...What are your views on your beloved SNP and the Renfrewshire Councillors burning the Smith Commission? Still think they are the party for Scotland???
 

SkinnyDave

Established Member
Joined
11 Mar 2012
Messages
1,242
So St Rollox...What are your views on your beloved SNP and the Renfrewshire Councillors burning the Smith Commission? Still think they are the party for Scotland???

Quite simply they are! Political stunts are not new both bad ones and good ones
I simply would have wiped my arse with it as that's all it's good for along with the Record
The destruction of the "Labour " party in Scotland is a joy to behold

It will take a few more years yet to finalise but it is a joy to behold and well deserved
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Or a party which talks left and acts right.

Freeze council tax, good if you live in a big house in Bearsden, not so good if its a wee flat (in St Rollox). So councils have to cut classroom assistants and services for disabled and elderly just like in England. But of course it's London's fault, nothing to do with us.

No prescription charges, but growing queues in A and E.

No tuition fees for the middle class uni students but less living support for poorer students, and big cuts to further education colleges, disproportionately used by the less affluent.

A few populist policies do not make a left wing party.

No but At least they make the effort unlike "Labour" SNP have stolen "Labour's" ground and they can't get themselves out of the big hole they have dug themselves into! They did have an opportunity in September but chose incorrectly
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Smith Commission is just off the press and some SNP mouthpiece (Linda Fabiani) is saying that it's not enough. What else do this mob want? We are not a federal system or a republic, the SNP didn't get Independence and they are going to have to accept that.

The powers that Holyrood now have, is more than what some states in the USA have....

But overall it's just typical Yes voters moaning as per usual...

Eh no, a lot of No voters wanted more powers delivered which predictably didn't happen so it's not "typical Yes voters"

It's just a slow waltz to Independence as typical Scots we go the long way round
 

St Rollox

Member
Joined
2 Jun 2013
Messages
650
So St Rollox...What are your views on your beloved SNP and the Renfrewshire Councillors burning the Smith Commission? Still think they are the party for Scotland???

Rather than beloved, i'd have said more "means to an end".
I'm one of the five million voters Labour has lost since 1997.
Once you start to turn on your own voters the games up.
Your voters look elsewhere.
For me it was the SSP/SNP route.
For others it might have been the LibDems, although that looks a bit silly once the LibsDems climbed into bed with the Tories.
If any party needed Independence, it was the Scottish Labour Party.
Ask Johann Lamont.
As i personally know Jim Murphy, i'm curious to know what happens next regarding Scottish Labour.
Knowing Jim Murphy's background and the politics of Labour's heartlands and all the sub plots that go with it, do unionists vote SNP to keep Jim Murphy out or Labour and get Jim Murphy as First Minister of Scotland.
Interesting times.
 
Last edited:

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,224
The Labour and Lib Dem parties are the only remaining political link between Scotland and the rUK after the implosion of the Tories after Thatcher. The Lib Dems have been gone since the tuition fee fiasco (could have been mitigated by having their Scottish MPs abstain but that didn't happen) and we're watching the slow death of Labour too. Only a quarter of No voters had national identity as their main justification, leaving only pragmatic issues like politics left keeping the Union together. If those pragmatic reasons start to disappear, there's absolutely nothing that can stop a second referendum succeeding.
 

ExRes

Established Member
Joined
16 Dec 2012
Messages
5,830
Location
Back in Sussex
Not exactly to do with independence I know, but my hearty congratulations to the Scots for bringing this about

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-30329743

Why the UK government won't bring in drink drive reductions I don't know, as far as I'm aware the limits are still the same as when I began driving in the early 70s and most people thought it was illegal to drive when sober, i wonder how many lives could have been saved in the last 40 years by gradual reductions in the legal limits
 

St Rollox

Member
Joined
2 Jun 2013
Messages
650
Jim Murphy becomes leader of the Scottish Labour Party.
Jim's a real love him or loath him character.
The next couple of years will be more interesting than the referendum.

Game on.
 
Last edited:

Oswyntail

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2009
Messages
4,183
Location
Yorkshire
The Labour and Lib Dem parties are the only remaining political link between Scotland and the UK after the implosion of the Tories after Thatcher......
Actually, the Conservative vote has held quite steady in General Elections since 1997, at around 16%. The lack of representation has been more due to the usual pro-Labour gerrymandering seen throughout the UK. Labour has been fairly consistent, at around 40%. SNP peaked at 22% in 1997, and has been gently pottering around at roughly the same level as Lib Dems, just above Conservatives since.
 

St Rollox

Member
Joined
2 Jun 2013
Messages
650
Actually, the Conservative vote has held quite steady in General Elections since 1997, at around 16%. The lack of representation has been more due to the usual pro-Labour gerrymandering seen throughout the UK. Labour has been fairly consistent, at around 40%. SNP peaked at 22% in 1997, and has been gently pottering around at roughly the same level as Lib Dems, just above Conservatives since.

In 1997 there were 72 Westminster constituencies in Scotland.
After the 1997 referendum the number of Westminster seats fell to 59 as part of setting up the Scottish Parliament.
The Tories wanted that number reduced to 49 or less.
Long term that will happen if the Tories ever get a majority again at Westminster.
Since the September referendum the SNP have shot through the roof in the opinion polls.
Yesterday's yougov poll had the SNP at 47%.
 
Last edited:

Oswyntail

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2009
Messages
4,183
Location
Yorkshire
In 1997 there 72 Westminster constituencies in Scotland.
After the 1997 referendum the number of Westminster seats fell to 59 as part of setting up the Scottish Parliament.
The Tories wanted that number reduced to 49 or less.
It is well recorded that there is an electoral bias in favour of Labour, with traditional Labour areas having more, smaller constituencies. The move to reduce the numbers of constituencies was, in part, to balance the number of voters in each.
Since the September referendum the SNP have shot through the roof in the opinion polls.
Yesterday's yougov poll had the SNP at 47%.
What will be interesting will be to see if that translates to a General Election or behaves like any other "local" vote (albeit bigger than any other local vote). Look at how often parties have claimed to have "broken through" at non-national elections (EU, local government) only to find that the vote in Parliamentaries stubbornly reverts to what it was.
Let us hope so, to avoid the potential nightmare of a UKIP/SNP coalition!
 

St Rollox

Member
Joined
2 Jun 2013
Messages
650
Well with Jim Murphy entering the story big time as Scottish Labour leader there's all to play for.
Would imagine half the 2 million that voted No in the referendum have made their mind up not to vote labour since Murphy was elected today.
His first words after winning the leadership were " i feel i could be the Celtic captain".
Obviously looking at his core support in Greater Glasgow.
 

Butts

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Jan 2011
Messages
11,323
Location
Stirlingshire
In 1997 there were 72 Westminster constituencies in Scotland.
After the 1997 referendum the number of Westminster seats fell to 59 as part of setting up the Scottish Parliament.
The Tories wanted that number reduced to 49 or less.
Long term that will happen if the Tories ever get a majority again at Westminster.
Since the September referendum the SNP have shot through the roof in the opinion polls.
Yesterday's yougov poll had the SNP at 47%.

This must be one of the few areas the Lib Dems are in favour of "First Past the Post" rather than PR.

At the 2010 General election they got 11 Seats with 18.9% of the Popular Vote.

Contrast that to the SNP who achieved 6 seats with a higher 19.9% of the vote, or the poor Tories who got one seat with 16.7%. :idea:
 

St Rollox

Member
Joined
2 Jun 2013
Messages
650
Afraid the Tories might seriously look at calling it a day in Scotland.
There's a place for a right of center party but the British conservative tag is holding them back.
Crikey Scottish Labour are probably more right-wing than them.
And a young gay female leader probably kills off the Sunday Post traditional unionist types.
And Jim Murphy is the last thing the Scottish Tories need at present.
 

dcsprior

Member
Joined
28 Aug 2012
Messages
795
Location
Edinburgh (Fri-Mon) & London (Tue-Thu)
Let us hope so, to avoid the potential nightmare of a UKIP/SNP coalition!

Why on earth would a party which positions itself to the left of Labour and the Lib Dems, enter a coalition with a far-right party?

I could perhaps see that a large increase in the vote for one of these parties would increase the chances of the other one being part of a government, but I think that May is more likely to see see aliens land on Glasgow Green than these two in coalition together.

Afraid the Tories might seriously look at calling it a day in Scotland.
There's a place for a right of center party but the British conservative tag is holding them back.
Crikey Scottish Labour are probably more right-wing than them.
And a young gay female leader probably kills off the Sunday Post traditional unionist types.

If anything, I'd say that some Scots, having chosen to vote No in the referendum, with the Tories featuring prominently in the Better Together campaign, may now see voting Tory as less of a taboo than they would previously

And being the largest party in Scotland to have elected an openly gay leader may also help them in shaking off their old "nasty party" image.

And Jim Murphy is the last thing the Scottish Tories need at present.

This however, I agree 100% with. Whilst Neil Findlay would probably have done a better job than Murphy of wining back voters on the left who've been lost to the SNP, Murphy will likely do better with voters on the right.
 

GaryMcEwan

Established Member
Joined
20 Aug 2013
Messages
1,604
Location
Bridgeton, Glasgow
I was at the announcement this morning, and it makes me even more determined to get behind Jim Murphy and Kezia Dugdale and get both the Tories and SNP out of office when the elections come.

There has been so much political infighting of late and hopefully with the new Scottish Labour team in charge they can put that to bed and get on with more pressing issues that is facing people in Scotland.
 

Oswyntail

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2009
Messages
4,183
Location
Yorkshire
Why on earth would a party which positions itself to the left of Labour and the Lib Dems, enter a coalition with a far-right party?....
OK, let's imagine - No one else is willing to touch either of them, but they do a deal, UKIP push through a Scottish Independence bill in return for SNP support in a leave Europe bill. Once Scotland leaves, a new general election must be called, so the marriage is relatively short.
In short, they are united by a willingness to shaft the UK to further their own narrow ends.
[I am reminded of the first cabinet meeting of Prime Minister Pork, for those with long memories]
 

ManUtd

Member
Joined
28 Nov 2014
Messages
64
Late to the party I know but I just want to add that I am glad Scotland voted no.
 

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,224
I was at the announcement this morning, and it makes me even more determined to get behind Jim Murphy and Kezia Dugdale and get both the Tories and SNP out of office when the elections come.

There has been so much political infighting of late and hopefully with the new Scottish Labour team in charge they can put that to bed and get on with more pressing issues that is facing people in Scotland.

I admire your optimism but I can't see Jim Murphy fixing either of the two fundamental problems of Scottish Labour:

  1. Because of FPTP in UK General Elections, only a small number of constituencies and the electorate in them is relevant to the success of a political party. In UK elections, it's primarily a two-horse race between the Tories and Labour. Appealing to Tory-Labour marginal voters means putting yourself to to the political right of centre in Scotland, leaving the SNP (unencumbered by any legacy issues at all) to take not only the left wing but the centrist vote as well. That they are actually not incompetent at governing makes things even worse. Given that Jim Murphy and the wider Labour Party show little sign of moving away from centre-right policies, is this really going to change in time for 2015 or 2016? Would people actually believe it if they did appear to change?
  2. When Labour and the Lib Dems were in power, Holyrood was run by the 'B-team' of those parties who were never going to rock the boat by pushing the boundaries of what Holyrood could do. They would never go against the policy of their UK counterparts if things were imposed upon Scotland (e.g. the bedroom tax) by them, because their over-riding policy is to keep the Union together no matter what. Since the SNP were elected, they have pushed the boundaries of what Holyrood could do and could imagine itself doing well beyond what any Unionist party could manage. That they dared to call themselves the Scottish Government rather than Executive was just the start. The electorate like the fact that the SNP's job above everything else is to get the best deal for Scotland, even if that means friction with a UK Government. The electorate are not so kind about the idea of a Scottish Government that is simply going to sit back and wait for orders and permission from their UK counterparts, only instituting policies that the UK one would institute anyway and indeed showing a preference for reducing the level of difference between Scottish and rUK policy? Johann Lamont wasn't allowed to attack the reviled Bedroom Tax for an entire year while Ed Miliband made his mind up (based upon focus groups for English marginals) whereas the SNP were against it from the very start. Would Jim Murphy ever disagree with Ed Miliband, who is trusted less in Scotland than David Cameron according to various opinion polls, given that the two of them are currently allies?
 

St Rollox

Member
Joined
2 Jun 2013
Messages
650
I was at the announcement this morning, and it makes me even more determined to get behind Jim Murphy and Kezia Dugdale and get both the Tories and SNP out of office when the elections come.

There has been so much political infighting of late and hopefully with the new Scottish Labour team in charge they can put that to bed and get on with more pressing issues that is facing people in Scotland.

Out of interest, how many members do the labour party have in Scotland?
 

St Rollox

Member
Joined
2 Jun 2013
Messages
650
Is that a rhetorical question ?

Far fewer than the "Tartan Tories" after their post-referendum boost :p

I'm genuinely curious how many labour party members there are in Scotland.
Jim Murphy was elected using a Byzantine voting method.
A third of the vote was open to Scottish trade unionists who's union is affiliated to the labour party.
Guess what, i and many others were offered a vote.
All politics and none were allowed in.
I didn't vote out of consideration for people like Gary on here.
Less than 10% of trade unionists voted in this farce.
Believe i voted Johann Lamont the last time as a favour for a trade union mate.
Truly i feel sorry for Gary, unless of course he voted for Jim Murphy, then it doesn't matter because he got his man elected.
 

GaryMcEwan

Established Member
Joined
20 Aug 2013
Messages
1,604
Location
Bridgeton, Glasgow
I'm genuinely curious how many labour party members there are in Scotland.
Jim Murphy was elected using a Byzantine voting method.
A third of the vote was open to Scottish trade unionists who's union is affiliated to the labour party.
Guess what, i and many others were offered a vote.
All politics and none were allowed in.
I didn't vote out of consideration for people like Gary on here.
Less than 10% of trade unionists voted in this farce.
Believe i voted Johann Lamont the last time as a favour for a trade union mate.
Truly i feel sorry for Gary, unless of course he voted for Jim Murphy, then it doesn't matter because he got his man elected.

I had two votes, one from my union and also from Labour themselves, and Jim Murphy and Kezia Dugdale got both of my votes...
 

DaveNewcastle

Established Member
Joined
21 Dec 2007
Messages
7,387
Location
Newcastle (unless I'm out)
On Wednesday morning (Dec 17th), the Supreme Court will publish its reasoning for refusing the Appeal against the Lord Advocate (Scotland) which asked if the Referendum was lawful.
Being mindful that the Referendum was imminent, the Supreme Court took the extraordinary action of offering their decision immediately after the end of the one day hearing in July, but reserving their reasoning for that Decision until later.
That hasty decision was that the Referendum was lawful.

The 'hook' on which the Appeal was launched was that prisoners are disbarred from participating in the Referrendum as a consequence of the rules regarding prisoners rights to vote in a political election. (Clearly, if the outcome of the Refferendum was a 'yes' majority, then the Executive would have been obliged to promptly hold an election, which would have to be constrained by those disbarring rules).
The decision appealed against can be read here : http://www.bailii.org/scot/cases/ScotCS/2014/2014CSIH56.html

This Wednesday's Decision will have no bearing now on anything that happens, so will only be for academic interest.

However, it was a question which interests me greatly, and while I hesitate to critisise the representations of the Petitioners (equiv. to the Apellants in England), I do believe that some of the crucial points were not adequately articulated durng the hearing (in fact, I had suggested an example to the Lord Advocate's Counsel that I suspect might have been more persuasive than that of prisoners!).

One crucial point was that the Referendum was a question of long-term governance and nationality, and in establishing a legislature - in contrast, an election is a question of politics (over a defined period) and democracy. The distinction becomes more acute when you consider the rules for eligibility which were applied - the rules admit anyone to participate in the Referendum if they are registered as resident in Scotland and if they are citizen of the EU or the Commonwealth or the Republic of Ireland (and not barred such as prisoners).
These rules include many people whose interest is short-term.

But these rules exclude others whose interest with a more permanent interest in creating a Scottish nation-state; these might include owning a substantial investment in Scottish property or other assets:- land owners, property owners, having Power of Attorney on behalf of Scottish citizens unable to vote through their own incapacity; holding Directorships or Trusteeships of Scottish enterprise, institutions, Charities; those working in Scotland for Scottish institutions, government, enterprise etc. and, of course, Scottish people living elsewhere (such as the in the EU or Commonwealth) and whose nationality might be about to change, but not otherwise falling within the rules of an election.

It was argued that the exclusions violated a Scottish person's Common Law rights.

Another crucial point was that the Referendum was incompatible with the ECHR Article 3 Protocol 1 and Article 10.

We can expect the reasoning to be published on the Supreme Court's website later on Wednesday : http://www.supremecourt.uk
 
Last edited:

St Rollox

Member
Joined
2 Jun 2013
Messages
650
Going by the rate of Scottish Labour leaders, think it's now 7 in 15 years, there's a possiblity Jim Murphy might not be around in 2016.
Really depends on what happens in May.
If the Scottish Tories are doing as well as some think on here, Murphy's own seat might be in danger.
Murphy did the work and his Better Together chums steal his own seat off him.
That would be funny.
And then there's the rest of the country.
20 weeks and counting.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top