Scotland wants to veto UK exit from EU if vote goes that way.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by AM9, 26 May 2015.

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  1. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

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    Whilst I admire the inventiveness of Ms Sturgeon calling for a second test of the UK's intent to leave the EU by requiring an unanimous 'out' vote from all four countries, it's a bit rich. For years, the SNP have been pleading a case for PR both inside Scotland and outside. They have now got a version of PR for the Scottish Executive but have an almost totalitarian position in the Scottish constituencies because of FPtP used nationally in the UK. The referendum will, for all the half-truths and misleading 'facts' presented, be a true PR vote rather than be held at the behest of less than 10% of the electorate.
    Having said that, the slightest prospect of the current Europhobic outlook, particularly from the right wing of UK politics having to sway the population in all areas would prevent a snap exit.
     
    Last edited: 26 May 2015
  2. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    While I am against an exit, I think Sturgeon should get lost. The only concession I would give is that following an "exit" vote Scotland should be given a further secession vote if they wish; in such a case Scotland would logically take over the UK's EU membership.
     
  3. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    I would be against an EU exit. Anything Ms Sturgeon can do to make an exit difficult or unsuccessful can only be a positive thing in my eyes.
     
  4. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    This is such a difficult one. I am against an exit, but I am more against the contrived democracy being proposed. I'd rather lose the vote than fix things to prevent it. In the end if the vote is to get out, I may also myself get out if a country (e.g. Scotland) will have me :)
     
  5. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Indeed I find myself in exactly the same boat. I don't want to exit so making that harder is good but this method of doing so does not sit at all well with me.

    Thankfully the North appears to be wanting to secede from the Union and join Scotland if they also leave so I might even need to move :lol:
     
  6. radamfi

    radamfi Established Member

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    What I'm worried about is if the UK's membership gets so watered down that we might as well be out of it. This is my fear regarding Cameron's current 'negotiations'. Particularly if we lose the right to live and work in the rest of the EU. That is overwhelmingly my number one issue. I would actually prefer leaving the EU but keeping freedom of movement (so like Norway in status) to staying the EU but losing the right to live and work elsewhere in the EU.
     
  7. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

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    But given the attitudes toward freedom of movement and the desire to listen to the ECHR only when it suits them, do you think that the EU negotiators will be in mind to water down the whole basis of modern European co-operation just because of (relatively) few xenophobes in the UK?
     
  8. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    What if most Scottish people vote for an exit but most English, Welsh and Northern Irish people vote to stay in the EU?
     
  9. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

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    Dream on! Would Scottish voters want to be that independant, i.e. no ties to anywhere. If they did, maybe Norway would make moves to annex them. :)
     
  10. HilversumNS

    HilversumNS Member

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    I can't see the EU making the changes that the UK want, just for one country. But rather than being full EU members, the UK could enter into agreements with the EU such as the European Economic Area (like Norway), the Free-trade agreement (such as Switzerland.)

    This would allow free trade to continue, as well as free movement of capital, services and people. As the UK isn't within Schengen anyway there would be virtually no difference to today, except that many EU laws would not have to be enshrined into UK law, which seems to be the major gripe everyone has.

    The question for Scotland is: Do they have another referendum vote 1st (despite stating before the elections that they wouldn't do that) and if that succeeds become non EU member, or get the whole of the UK to leave the EU (which I think they will vote against) then independance have to join the EU as a new state then.

    The Scots seem to want it all: Independance but with a currency backed by the BoE and instant EU membership. A reality check is needed.
     
  11. chorleyjeff

    chorleyjeff Member

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    No. We don't want to be anything but English. We know which on which side our bread is buttered.
    Historically we were the folk who were subject to centuries of raids by Scots when they had had enough of fighting amongst themselves. We have no more affection for them than they have for us.
    Please do not believe what the chattering classes of Islington say about us.
    I remember that last year there was a decisive referendum vote inScotland for Scotland to stay as part of the UK. What has changed that can't be changed
    back?
    If some people want an end to so called austerity surely they should have cast
    their vote accordingly in the general election.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    We are all part of the UK and the majority vote wil carry the day and we will all have to live with it.
    Parts of Lancashire may vote to stay in and other parts to stay out but the UK majority will carry the day and the minority will have to go with the majority. Even if the Lancashire majority is part of the national minority. Rather like the recent general election.
     
  12. Liam

    Liam Established Member

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    That's not as far out an idea as you might think, at least in some parts of Scotland.
     
  13. Trog

    Trog Established Member

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    That would make a Northern Irish vote of the same value as about 26 English ones. If that is democratic so would be dividing the Scottish vote by 26. That would make the Scottish vote about three times smaller than Tunbridge Wells. I bet that would go down well in sunny Scotland.
     
  14. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I was only trying to inject a bit of levity into the discussion :|
     
  15. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    I suspect certain parts of the SNP would be very glad if the UK voted to leave the EU but there was no majority to do so in Scotland. They are on record as saying that would be a possible reason/excuse (delete according to political bias) for another independence referendum. And the way Scotland feels it has been treated since the last one, and the prospect of more of the same, makes it highly likely they would vote to leave next time.
     
  16. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    And there is increasing feeling in England that if they want to leave, they should just vote "yes" and get on with it. But don't expect any special deals, currency unions, military unions etc; Scotland must in my view be treated as just another EU country. The Republic of Ireland would provide a good example.

    What we are completely fed up of is the posturing and the whining.

    What is also sure is that if there is another referendum and this time it is also a "no", there will be no sympathy to any more whining for many, many years to come.
     
  17. HilversumNS

    HilversumNS Member

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    Are you referring to the SNP not being in bed with Labour to form a government? If that is what they expected and therefore voted NO in the referendum, it was a BIG gamble and they lost big time.
     
  18. Jonny

    Jonny Established Member

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    Agreed, and if Scotland has a second referendum becomes independent then it should seek re-admission as an outsider.
     
  19. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    Sorry I don't understand that comment at all.

    The SNP doubtlessly voted Yes in the referendum, but the way the English parties (as we now have to call them) behaved afterwards generated more support for the SNP. The Conservatives were then able to use the SNP factor to their advantage to gain English votes from Labour, who lost out in both countries. This much is, I suggest, indisputable, although I may be veering towards the paranoid in suspecting the whole lot was planned in advance by George Osborne.

    What is also controversial is the thought that the SNP actually favoured a Conservative victory without being able to say so. A large number of Scots loathe the Conservative party and having Cameron in government again represents the best chance for the SNP to engineer a vote for independence.
     
  20. HilversumNS

    HilversumNS Member

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    I didn't quite grasp your earlier post, but I do now. Thanks for clarifying.
     
  21. zuriblue

    zuriblue Member

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    In Switzerland the relationship with the EU is governed by a set of treaties called the Bilaterals. To gain access to the Single Market the Swiss pay the EU a great deal of money and many EU principles such as FMOL are part of Swiss law. The Swiss have no say on the EU laws but have to implement them. It's similar in Norway.

    This is probably advantageous compared with what the UK would get, after all the EU would like to see Swiss and Norwegian accession.
     
  22. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

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    Interestingly, the tories have dropped their ECHR thrust from the Queen's Speech. It's not surprising when the real picture starts to emerge, - the UK has always been a prominent promoter of universal human rights across the globe ever since the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was adopted by the UN in 1948.
    Ever since that date, the UK, and particularly the right, have often pompously trumpeted how the UK is a leader in freedom and human justice. Now they want to pick and choose which ECHR judgements they approve of and which they can ignore, - an attitude somewhere between a tyrant and a spoilt child.
    There's a very interesting article describing the mess that the Tories have got themselves into published here:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/david-morrison/will-a-conservative-gover_b_5985550.html

    Now with the SNP adding a further more local constitutional hurdle, i.e. the commitment in the Scotland Act 1998 which in itself contains specific restriction on the Scottich Executive including actions which: "would be incompatible with any international obligations". So Scotland would have a fair gripe if their establishing legislation was changed by an act of, essentially English political expedience.
    I expect that this whole exercise will cost the Tories dearly as their right-wing force parliament to get well and truly bogged down in constutional treacle.
     
    Last edited: 27 May 2015
  23. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

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    I am most sure that the 1922 Committee and other like-minded personages in the Conservative Party will be only too aware of what their current overall majority can achieve or cannot.
     
  24. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    The SNP's (and Plaid Cymru's) stance is they don't want their countries to be pulled out of the EU if the majority of people in Scotland/Wales vote to stay and the majority of people in England vote to leave.

    However, I was asking what if the reverse applies and Scotland wants to leave but England wants to stay would the SNP be pushing for an exit for Scotland then?
     
  25. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

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    Hence their decision to shelve the matter for the first session at least. Given that first step backwards, those that are pushing for action will start rattling their chains soon. Once the Government sees the impact of its intentions on international relations, it may be slipped further down the agenda until it drops out of this term.
     
  26. Mojo

    Mojo Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    My theory on perhaps what was trying to be said is that the high levels SNP support arose from the suggestion that by voting SNP, instead of Labour, it would deny Labour a majority, but that SNP+Labour (+ possibly others) could form an anti-Tory coalition, the price of which would have been more "stuff" for Scotland.
     
  27. Dave1987

    Dave1987 Established Member

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    That is so anti democratic it is unreal. Because you are against an exit you want as many barriers put in place as possible.

    I am in the middle ground on the EU, neither for it or against it. But I hear all the time from the pro EU people that "millions of jobs rely on our EU membership" but none of them explain why this is. Its not as if if we leave the EU we will suddenly stop trading with the EU. I'm almost getting to the stage where I think the EU needs us more than we need it. Policies like the common agricultural policy need scrapping now.

    As far as the whole Sturgeon comments go, I wish she would stop playing games and call another referendum so Scotland go independent. She is slowly slowly building momentum for another one so we might as well get it out of the way.
     
    Last edited: 27 May 2015
  28. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

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    Referendums for Scotland breakaway are authorised by the UK parliament, not the Scottish Executive.
     
  29. HilversumNS

    HilversumNS Member

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    If the UK was not within the EU, all exports to EU countries (52% of UK trade) would be liable to import taxes. One example is Nissan cars made in Sunderland, they would instantly cost 10% more to sell in the EU. 80% of the output from Nissan Sunderland is exported.
     
  30. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    One of the many reasons it would be a bad idea to leave, and I hope there will be a solid campaign to stay in.

    However I doubt the world will end if we do leave.
     
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