• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Scotland's Railway - Potential Enhancement Options

Status
Not open for further replies.

snookertam

Member
Joined
22 Sep 2018
Messages
779
I didn't realise that any of Haymarket was open. I thought that the Fife lines were being used for engineering access to the work on the East junction, which is of course on the Carstairs/Newbridge side.

Yeah there were two trains per hour getting in and out of Haymarket - I think they were using platform 0 and possibly using Haymarket North Goods loop although could be wrong there. Seemed like there was some sort of special working arrangement in place.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
7,937
I'll tell you why - most Aberdeen and Inverness services were terminating and starting at Haymarket, which is in Edinburgh City Centre. Far more convenient than a 20-odd minute diversion round the sub.

But long distance trains could reach Edinburgh with local trains running to Haymarket instead, eg from Queen Street, Stirling, or Alloa.
 

InOban

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2017
Messages
4,218
Although there was access to platform 0, I'm sure the OHLE was switched off, local trains from Glasgow and Stirling were not possible. I know that trains were being turned round at Edinburgh Park, which has tram and bus services. I don't know what services were provided on the Fife locals.
 

Tobbes

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2012
Messages
1,242
I would truly love it, I can walk to the site of Ellon station in ten minutes! But alas it is some way off, if ever at all to happen. I get the impression NESTRANS is against it.
Why would NESTRANS oppose Ellon - especially if it opened up the route to Peterhead/Fraserburgh?
 

snookertam

Member
Joined
22 Sep 2018
Messages
779
But long distance trains could reach Edinburgh with local trains running to Haymarket instead, eg from Queen Street, Stirling, or Alloa.

See above for why locals couldn't have reached Haymarket - however why run to Waverley via the sub, adding an extra 20 minutes at least when there's Haymarket? Also as pointed out above access to Waverley east end is an issue, both in terms of platforming and paths. Another practical issue is traincrew - only Edinburgh crews have route knowledge, so resourcing it would be incredibly difficult when there's going to be one train per hour. Really doesn't strike me as a worthwhile move and can understand entirely why ScotRail chose to do what they did.
 

Put Kettle On

Member
Joined
2 Apr 2019
Messages
51
Location
Here & there , but mainly there .
Seem to be way off topic for a potential enhancement thread .

Don’t really see the need to keep going on about this, including hypotheticals for temporary workings which were required for a temporary blockade at Haymarket .
The blockade was for renewal of Haymarket East Junction & was carried out & completed over the Christmas period & as such normal working has resumed .
 

Meerkat

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2018
Messages
7,525
Shouldn’t high speed enabling projects include at least preliminary looks at how to speed up and de conflict the WCML into Glasgow? Too many flat junctions, suburban stations, and lack of fast lines.
 

d9009alycidon

Member
Joined
22 Jun 2011
Messages
842
Location
Eaglesham
Shouldn’t high speed enabling projects include at least preliminary looks at how to speed up and de conflict the WCML into Glasgow? Too many flat junctions, suburban stations, and lack of fast lines.

Agree with this, it is frequently the case that a Pendolino will get to Carstairs on or ahead of time and be late into Central due to disruption to Scotrail services. There is also the slows for the curves at Garriongill, Motherwell Station, and the long slow trundle from Polmadie into Central itself. unfortunately there are no obvious low to medium cost solutions to the issue. Perhaps if the UK had the same "out of the box" thinking as Holland they could have built the M74 with a wide central reservation enough for a pair of tracks, similar to the line out to Schipol.
 

Class83

Member
Joined
8 Jun 2012
Messages
494
Shouldn’t high speed enabling projects include at least preliminary looks at how to speed up and de conflict the WCML into Glasgow? Too many flat junctions, suburban stations, and lack of fast lines.
One simple improvement would be to reopen the smoother curve at Carstairs towards Edinburgh, would probably save 5 mins between Carlisle and Edinburgh.
 

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,224
I can't remember the exact source but there was fairly convincing word that Transport Scotland were looking at exactly that sort of new bypass line for Glasgow, including a new station near Eurocentral. It's the sort of line that I've been proposing for a while but I'm pretty sure it came from a good source. As ideas go, it is a fairly strong one, even in isolation. Being able to so neatly bypass all of the flat junctions and stations in Lanarkshire would make a big difference for both long distance and local services.

I expect a similar line in Edinburgh to bypass the Slateford line out to Midcalder Junction. It would be ludicrous for all high speed services to Edinburgh to remain limited by the capacity of Haymarket East junction. While the Almond/Dalmeny Chord would do some good to reduce conflicts, it can't make it possible to path more fast and slow services on this shared piece of track. With fast trains on a new line heading straight to Waverley via a tunnel, it would be possible to run an Airdrie-Bathgate style clockface timetable for the inner West Lothian and Edinburgh council stations on the line. That could unlock quite a bit of development out beyond Heriott-Watt if the tram isn't likely to come that way.
 

CEN60

Member
Joined
17 Dec 2018
Messages
267
One simple improvement would be to reopen the smoother curve at Carstairs towards Edinburgh, would probably save 5 mins between Carlisle and Edinburgh.

If you mean the old "south Victoria Curve" it has been looked at - a flat junction would be needed North of Float viaduct - not enough room to get a 50mph flat junction in north of Float and hit the old solum. Its been looked at to death - an all singing all dancing scheme for the whole of Carstairs was produced (including moving the Station) - but perceived to be "too expensive" - now NR are doing a half baked "improvement scheme" that will nearly cost as much!
 

JohnR

Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
492
Why would NESTRANS oppose Ellon - especially if it opened up the route to Peterhead/Fraserburgh?

I dont think they are opposed, per se, so much as very luke warm on the idea. To be honest, I've not come across any of the regional transport partnerships that are overly keen on rail reopenings.
 

Highland37

Established Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
1,259
I dont think they are opposed, per se, so much as very luke warm on the idea. To be honest, I've not come across any of the regional transport partnerships that are overly keen on rail reopenings.

At times I wonder what their point is. As a principle, I thought they might be at least interested in investigating it.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,190
One simple improvement would be to reopen the smoother curve at Carstairs towards Edinburgh, would probably save 5 mins between Carlisle and Edinburgh.

It’s also been elsewhere on these pages that it wouldn’t save five minutes, far from it.
 

Class83

Member
Joined
8 Jun 2012
Messages
494
It’s also been elsewhere on these pages that it wouldn’t save five minutes, far from it.

The 15mph section is roughly a mile long so will take around 4 minutes to travel, if the limit is increased to say 60mph and distance reduced slightly, then that will take 1 minute to travel, a saving of 3 mins, plus less time for slowing down and accelerating, 4-5 minutes seems quite plausible.
 

Class83

Member
Joined
8 Jun 2012
Messages
494
If you mean the old "south Victoria Curve" it has been looked at - a flat junction would be needed North of Float viaduct - not enough room to get a 50mph flat junction in north of Float and hit the old solum. Its been looked at to death - an all singing all dancing scheme for the whole of Carstairs was produced (including moving the Station) - but perceived to be "too expensive" - now NR are doing a half baked "improvement scheme" that will nearly cost as much!
Couldn't express points be installed to the south of the Viaduct, then a single lead junction installed at the appropriate point to/from the 'southbound' track?
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,190
The 15mph section is roughly a mile long so will take around 4 minutes to travel, if the limit is increased to say 60mph and distance reduced slightly, then that will take 1 minute to travel, a saving of 3 mins, plus less time for slowing down and accelerating, 4-5 minutes seems quite plausible.

But it’s not a mile long. It’s roughly quarter of a mile long, with a further mile at 30mph.
 

JohnR

Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
492
At times I wonder what their point is. As a principle, I thought they might be at least interested in investigating it.

I can only speak of the two near me that I am most familiar with, but I doubt the others are much different:

Staff tend to be ex-local authority, and hence come from a road background. Board members include councillors, who again tend to have a road bias. The result is there isnt the political will to drive forward things.
 

CEN60

Member
Joined
17 Dec 2018
Messages
267
Couldn't express points be installed to the south of the Viaduct, then a single lead junction installed at the appropriate point to/from the 'southbound' track?

You could install an crossover south of the viaduct but - that means you need run "wrong road" for longer (ie on the Up Line) - this has the effect of turning the West Coast into a "single line" for longer and no trains can go south while you run wrong road to access a new turnout to the "Victoria Curve". A design was done for a new flatter 50mph curved connection to Edinburgh with associated S&C as part of the "expensive" scheme which solved the problem - but "cost" bombed it out. Also as a footnote - Network Rail no longer own the land that forms the old "Victoria Curve"
 

47271

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2015
Messages
2,983
Scotland's railway roadmap: think tank reveals wish-list for our train network

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news...p-think-tank-reveals-wish-list-train-network/

I'm really just posting this latest output from Railfuture for the record. I'm not sure if it adds anything to the discussion, and with the exception of three or four items, most of it's pie in the sky, but here it is anyway.

COMPREHENSIVE proposals to expand Scotland’s rail network to help provide a train service that can cope with a nation moving away from carbon-emitting cars have been mapped out by an influential think tank.

Railfuture Scotland has developed a list that includes the creation of more than 90 new train stations, more than 20 new passenger and freight lines, and a major expansion of network electrification.

It includes calls for firm plans to create a Glasgow Airport Rail Link, which has been promised for years with different proposals approved and later scrapped.


Last month, the principle of a metro link for Glasgow Airport was agreed by council leaders in Glasgow and Renfrewshire.

The first phase of the proposed Glasgow Metro announced by the leader of Glasgow City Council, Susan Aitken, would link Paisley Gilmour Street train station and Glasgow Airport before extending further east.

Aitken has said the leaders of both councils have agreed funding for the project, although it would need sanctioned by councillors in both authorities before work could begin.

10975040.jpg


The Railfuture Scotland maps are an update on past attempts to kickstart the debate on the “needs” of Scotland’s rail network to make them “fit for the requirements of the requirements of the 21st century”.

It comes in a week when UK Transport Secretary Grant Shapps launched a Government fund to help restore historic railway lines closed in the 1960s after the Beeching report.

Boris Johnson promised a £500 million “Beeching reversal” fund during the 2019 General Election campaign. It followed a similar vow made in 2017 by the last Transport Secretary, Chris Grayling. The Department for Transport confirmed there would be a Barnett formula dividend from any scheme for Scotland – although it could not put an estimate on that.

But Postwatch Scotland secretary Jane Ann Liston questioned whether the money was anywhere near enough.


The Borders Railway, a Scottish Government project to restore the northernmost 30 miles of the Edinburgh-Carlisle line, cost £300m alone and the route reopened in 2015.

Jane Ann Liston, who is also Railfuture Scotland secretary, said of the rail map for the future: “It is making up for decades of underinvestment, with successive governments skimping and using the railways as a political football. That’s really why we are in the state we are.

“This is what Scotland needs. This is not just plucked out of the air. There are cases behind all of them.”

It calls for the resurrection of the mothballed Crossrail Glasgow scheme – the long-proposed £200m development that would link rail networks to the north and south of the city and connect Glasgow’s Central and Queen Street stations.

Other major feeder and link lines suggested include the reopening of Edinburgh’s lost circle line.

That involves making use of the double-track Edinburgh Suburban & Southside Railway (ESSR) that loops around the city and is still used for diverted services and freight transport.

The South Sub, which arcs round the southside from near Murrayfield Stadium to Brunstane, lost its regular passenger trains more than 50 years ago. The group suggests the Edinburgh South Suburban would reconnect south Edinburgh stations, involve the opening of eight new stations and that using hybrid tram-trains would connect to the Edinburgh tram line west of Haymarket.


It is suggested tram-trains could run into the city centre on the line before switching to tracks on streets, which would avoid adding to congestion at Waverley.

New lines proposed include to St Andrews, Lossiemouth, Haddington, Penicuik and Kilmacolm.

And it says that electrification has to be expanded and should be carried out at a rate of 125 track miles a year.

It would help to cut journey times, improve reliability, and reduce operating costs on lines. Electric trains are seen as more environmentally friendly as they emit up to 35% less carbon than a diesel train.

It says lines from Aberdeen to Inverness, from Ayr to Girvan and the new Borders line should be added to the programme of electrification.


Railfuture’s new station list covers virtually every existing line.

It says the number one station opening priority based on usage and which lies on existing or proposed rail lines would be the reopening of the Glasgow Cross railway station.

Once a famous city-centre landmark with its striking arched windows and domed roof, it is estimated that it would have a minimum annual usage of 2.17 million people if reopened.

It was shut down in October 1964 although the former station building remained unused for many years afterwards.

There have been proposals for the station to be reopened as part of Crossrail Glasgow.


When the Argyle Line opened in 1979, the station was never reopened and was replaced by the new Argyle Street station.

Second on the priority list is a new Grangemouth station, with the pressure group estimating it would be used by 360,000 people a year.

A resurrection of a railway station in the Gorbals area of Glasgow would be expected to attract 308,250 a year and was also proposed in the Crossrail Glasgow scheme. The original station opened in 1877 and closed permamently in 1928.

The reopening of a rail link closed in the 1960s, also championed by Railfuture Scotland, is one of a series of options currently being taken forward to try and improve transport in southwest Scotland.

The Dumfries to Stranraer line plan is contained in a finalised South West Scotland Transport Study which outlines ways to give the region better connectivity.

The projects also involve restoring the rail line between Dumfries to Stranraer and Cairnryan to help the ferry terminals cope with increased competition from ports in England such as Liverpool.

That would enable ferry passengers to again travel by train, which ended nine years ago when Stena Line moved from Stranraer to join P&O at Cairnryan, seven miles down Loch Ryan.

The Dumfries line, closed 55 years ago, was featured in John Buchan’s The 39 Steps, with fugitive Richard Hannay checking a copy of The Scotsman on a train for news of the police hunt for him.

Transport Scotland had also said that “the potential merits of new stations and services to improve connections to Glasgow” on the existing line to Dumfries would also be explored.
 
Last edited:

Photohunter71

Member
Joined
17 Jan 2012
Messages
576
Location
In a flat beside Niddrie West junction
All very well, it looks fantastic and makes sense. However, it has to have a business case for a good part of the project. Also, there needs to be better incentives for rail freight, more encouragement for rail freight. How will the proposed line to Penicuik be sited? Since most of it is built over or turned into a cycle path.
Haddington, good idea about linking it to the railway network, but yet again, most of the line is built on. I'm all for greater use and expanse of the railway network, but it has to be viable.
 

Highland37

Established Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
1,259
@47271

I think it adds a lot and I strongly agree with electrifying Ayr to Girvan. It has great potential.

@Photohunter71 - Bad news - railways are not economically viable and there is no "business case" for the majority of lines. Railways are more than businesses and provide a much wider function and if they were run as businesses alone, most would be insolvent by the end of the week. It's an absurd measure.
 

47271

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2015
Messages
2,983
@47271

I think it adds a lot and I strongly agree with electrifying Ayr to Girvan. It has great potential.
It adds little to the discussion in that nearly all of the schemes outlined have been discussed extensively both on this forum and in the public domain generally. Three or four of them are sound, and I agree entirely that Ayr to Girvan electrification should be on that list.

In my view we'd all be better served by Railfuture if they could put more focus on intensively promoting, and educating the general public on, the sorts of schemes that open this thread rather than mad romantic ideas like restoration of the Strathmore route, the inclusion of which was enough to discredit the report to me straight away.
 

47271

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2015
Messages
2,983
I appreciate that, but I thought that to put in a new line, there had to be a case made of a business nature. Maybe I got the wrong end of the story?
No, you're absolutely correct, it might not be called a business case however. It's essential because some schemes will be viable in social, economic and regeneration terms as Highland37 says and, at the other end of the scale, some are nonsense. It's nothing to do with whether or not they're going to make money.
 

Highland37

Established Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
1,259
I appreciate that, but I thought that to put in a new line, there had to be a case made of a business nature. Maybe I got the wrong end of the story?

Does there? Please define what you mean by "business". Do you mean a profit making enterprise?
 

Highland37

Established Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
1,259
It adds little to the discussion in that nearly all of the schemes outlined have been discussed extensively both on this forum and in the public domain generally. Three or four of them are sound, and I agree entirely that Ayr to Girvan electrification should be on that list.

In my view we'd all be better served by Railfuture if they could put more focus on intensively promoting, and educating the general public on, the sorts of schemes that open this thread rather than mad romantic ideas like restoration of the Strathmore route, the inclusion of which was enough to discredit the report to me straight away.

Ok it may add little to the discussion on this forum but the majority of people don't look at this or are interested. The fact that it appears in the press shows it adds a fair amount.

I don't think the majority have been discussed in the public domain extensively. Where? Yes a few articles but they are not an ongoing discussion.

Much of the content on these forums is driven by nostalgia from enthusiasts. It's not a place for a gathering of professionals.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top