Scotrail 170s

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Failed Unit

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I don't know if anyone has a view point about if the rest of the Scotrail fleet of 170s should have 1st class fitted?

I have noticed recently a drastic increase of the SPT 170s as well as the few remaining 170s with no first class on the Edinburgh - Glasgow route. Including in the peak multiple SPT trains. Good for us standard class passengers but surely with the frequency this is happening at the moment it may be soon hitting revenue.

I know a train is better than a cancelation but it seems like Scotrail are still short of enough 170s with first class (or they are not very good at keeping them away from the Dunblane / Cumbernauld services)
 
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michael769

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There have been quite a lot of short formed runs lately (most notably today where there was quite a long list!), so i suspect they may be a bit short or rolling stock for some reason.

In any case, I thought there are plans in the pipeline to equip the rest of the 170 fleet with 1st class areas?
 

Scotrail84

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I don't know if anyone has a view point about if the rest of the Scotrail fleet of 170s should have 1st class fitted?

I have noticed recently a drastic increase of the SPT 170s as well as the few remaining 170s with no first class on the Edinburgh - Glasgow route. Including in the peak multiple SPT trains. Good for us standard class passengers but surely with the frequency this is happening at the moment it may be soon hitting revenue.

I know a train is better than a cancelation but it seems like Scotrail are still short of enough 170s with first class (or they are not very good at keeping them away from the Dunblane / Cumbernauld services)
The requirement for 4 sections of 1st class is not justified by passenger numbers so they only need to have one unit fitted with 1st on the E+G now at peak times. All barbie liveried 170s will eventually be rebranded and refitted with 1st afaik (450-461were the std class only units). The SPT sets will eventually be rebranded as the former SPT sets 470 and 471 have had the rebrand but not the internal refit.
 

jopsuk

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If they could do a better job of keeping them on the right routes, really they need three subfleets- without 1st class for the Central (minus E-G shuttle) commuter services, double 1st class for E-G (remember, this service has previously had three different dedicated fleets- the old DMUs ("Class 126"), the Class 27 push-pulls and the Class 47/DBSO sets) and single 1st class for Edinburgh/Glasgow to Aberdeen/Inverness
 

Failed Unit

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When you think about it they should have enough units for the non first class units to stay off the Edinburgh - Glasgow

42 = with 1st Class in 2 ends (170401-434 & 170450 - 457)
4 = with 1st Class at 1 end - the ex-Hull trains units
13 = with no 1st Class (170458 - 461 & 170470 - 478)

It is off that you can go on an Edinburgh - Glasgow train in the shoulder peak with no 1st class (probably as a result of a 6 coach train splitting the 1815 is a good chance of having no 1st Class). Then see a service such as Glasgow - Cumbernuald with 1st.

I know "Scotrail84" has highlighted the E&G does not need 2x units with 1st class, which is true considering that they only have a trolley in one end (sometimes the end with no 1st class) but I would have thought the routes not needing 1st class would have got the non-1st class units first. Not sure how many diagrams never interwork however. E&G often interwork with the Dunblanes. ie in the morning arrivals from Dunblane and Glasgow join together to form the 0745 Edinburgh - Glasgow. The 1715 Glasgow - Edinburgh use to split to form trains to Dunblane and Glasgow. Not sure if fife Circle trains inter mingle with other routes. But they do seem a common fleet now. SPTs on the E&G was unheard of last year unless a failed unit had happened.
 

Eng274

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Because the suburban 170 fleet is now reduced (13 left) after a couple of units were fitted with 1st class (can't remember the numbers off the top of my head, somewhere in the 450s-460s) the likelihood of getting a SPT liveried unit as the booked suburban on a peak E-G is greater. Eventually they'll all be painted out of SPT colours of course.

One thing to bear in mind is that there can often be inter mingling with 158s and vice versa, particularly if units are out of position/failed, it is not uncommon to see a 170 vice 158 and vice versa on the dunblanes, fife circles etc. This puts more pressure to keep the sub units healthy, particularly when the ex-down south 158s choose not to play ball.

Heck, I saw a express 170 on a Cumbernauld the other day!
 

alexf380

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I don't know what units will be cascaded by EGIP but the original 170's (401-424) are not currently being refurbished so they may be sent off. 156's/ 158's could also be candidates for displacement.
 

Scotrail84

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I don't know what units will be cascaded by EGIP but the original 170's (401-424) are not currently being refurbished so they may be sent off. 156's/ 158's could also be candidates for displacement.
170 418 has been rebranded but don't know about the interior as it was on depot when I seen it.
 

Scotrail84

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When you think about it they should have enough units for the non first class units to stay off the Edinburgh - Glasgow

42 = with 1st Class in 2 ends (170401-434 & 170450 - 457)
4 = with 1st Class at 1 end - the ex-Hull trains units
13 = with no 1st Class (170458 - 461 & 170470 - 478)

It is off that you can go on an Edinburgh - Glasgow train in the shoulder peak with no 1st class (probably as a result of a 6 coach train splitting the 1815 is a good chance of having no 1st Class). Then see a service such as Glasgow - Cumbernuald with 1st.

I know "Scotrail84" has highlighted the E&G does not need 2x units with 1st class, which is true considering that they only have a trolley in one end (sometimes the end with no 1st class) but I would have thought the routes not needing 1st class would have got the non-1st class units first. Not sure how many diagrams never interwork however. E&G often interwork with the Dunblanes. ie in the morning arrivals from Dunblane and Glasgow join together to form the 0745 Edinburgh - Glasgow. The 1715 Glasgow - Edinburgh use to split to form trains to Dunblane and Glasgow. Not sure if fife Circle trains inter mingle with other routes. But they do seem a common fleet now. SPTs on the E&G was unheard of last year unless a failed unit had happened.
.


170 393 has been turned into a suburban unit, it's first class has been replaced with standard class seats. The vestibule sliding doors still remain although they were locked open when I worked the unit. All other ex hull turbos have still got their 1st sections.
 

Failed Unit

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.


170 393 has been turned into a suburban unit, it's first class has been replaced with standard class seats. The vestibule sliding doors still remain although they were locked open when I worked the unit. All other ex hull turbos have still got their 1st sections.
Are they going to remove the buffets? I know they tried using them while they were on the Inverness line but they have not really had and use for quite a while now and I am sure the seats would be welcome.

170401 - 140424 where re-fresher internally fairly recently, with the same trim so I would doubt much will be done internally. I was on 418 yesterday, did notice any internal work apart from a good clean.

170415 is in desparate need of a repaint, it is looking a mess at the moment with bare metal showing on the cab. Don't know why, but it had the same problem when it was in Scotrail livery.
 

rail-britain

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Reading between the lines, does this mean that 170s are unlikely to be cascaded out of Scotland by EGIP?
Details will not be known until the end of 2013
Equally, in the next franchise it will be up to the new franchisee to change any rolling stock they see fit, excluding the Class 380, with approval of Transport Scotland

I currently have an outstanding request for information which could not be answered at todays press briefing, and was advised I will receive a repsonse next week
This will also include the completion details of the refurbishment
Equally, the press officer was not aware of the different types of internal (seating) layouts within the Class 170 units and was under the impression they were the same, and will include details with the above
 

tbtc

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All barbie liveried 170s will eventually be rebranded and refitted with 1st afaik
I do believe that 1st class shall be added as the units go through the internal refurbishment this/ next year.
the suburban 170 fleet is now reduced (13 left) after a couple of units were fitted with 1st class (can't remember the numbers off the top of my head, somewhere in the 450s-460s)
170 393 has been turned into a suburban unit, it's first class has been replaced with standard class seats
Unless I'm missing something, ScotRail have spent money taking First Class seats out of one 170 and putting First Class seats into others instead?

I can see the logic in having none/some/most/all 170s with First Class, but I'm not sure why they'd be taking First Class out of one whilst putting it into others? (or am I getting the wrong end of the stick?)
 

rail-britain

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Unless I'm missing something, ScotRail have spent money taking First Class seats out of one 170 and putting First Class seats into others instead?
why they'd be taking First Class out of one whilst putting it into others? (or am I getting the wrong end of the stick?)
The manufacturer that supplied the First Class seats went into administration
Additional standard seats were then ordered and there is now a surplus, however there remains a shortage of First Class seats

This resulted in 170393 being the first to have its layout revised, and the others will follow as each passes through refurbishment
This also releases some First Class seats for refurbishment, which will then be refitted into other units that currently do not have First Class
Effectively the First Class seats removed from 170393 have now been fitted into two other units (which previously did not have First Class)
I believe these can be identified by looking at the base of the seat, as it is a different design, otherwise you would not know
Due to the time scale from the new seating manufacturer this means there is quite some time so the ex-Hull units cannot be completed in sequence

ScotRail had hoped to use these ex-Hull units exclusively between Edinburgh and Inverness, but that has become impractical and has now been abandoned
 

tbtc

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The manufacturer that supplied the First Class seats went into administration
Additional standard seats were then ordered and there is now a surplus, however there remains a shortage of First Class seats

This resulted in 170393 being the first to have its layout revised, and the others will follow as each passes through refurbishment
This also releases some First Class seats for refurbishment, which will then be refitted into other units that currently do not have First Class
Effectively the First Class seats removed from 170393 have now been fitted into two other units (which previously did not have First Class)
I believe these can be identified by looking at the base of the seat, as it is a different design, otherwise you would not know
Due to the time scale from the new seating manufacturer this means there is quite some time so the ex-Hull units cannot be completed in sequence

ScotRail had hoped to use these ex-Hull units exclusively between Edinburgh and Inverness, but that has become impractical and has now been abandoned
...but why spend time and money taking the seats out of one DMU to swap then with another DMU's seats?

Wouldn't it just be easier to swap the DMUs? Or do ScotRail have money to burn?
 

rail-britain

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...but why spend time and money taking the seats out of one DMU to swap then with another DMU's seats?
The ex-Hull Trains have the First Class in the same coach as the buffet
This causes issues with seat reservations for ScotRail
Therefore this First Class had to be relocated to the other coach within the set, hence why the automatic door remains in place
 

Failed Unit

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The ex-Hull Trains have the First Class in the same coach as the buffet
This causes issues with seat reservations for ScotRail
Therefore this First Class had to be relocated to the other coach within the set, hence why the automatic door remains in place
No they don't the hull trains first class seats are behind one driver cab, the buffet is in the centre coach. When the HT trains arrived in Scotland most of one coach had 1st class. This was replaced by standard except directly behind the driver. You can tell as the seats are blue in this coach and orange in the rest of the set. The 1st class seat is total different to any in the scotrail ordered 170s it is much bigger. I don't know what happened to the rest of the HT 1st class seats but scotrail style ones are fitted in 450 - 457.

The ex HT will never be standard even if the buffets are removed. The power points and toilets in the ms see to that. It is a shame they were not built as 4 car.
 

rail-britain

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No they don't the hull trains first class seats are behind one driver cab, the buffet is in the centre coach. When the HT trains arrived in Scotland most of one coach had 1st class
Yes, I am aware the buffet is in the centre coach and the number of seats in First Class was reduced
I am referring to the original reasons why this change occured
The buffet was turned within the set so that it was adjacent to the coach with the First Class
This was different to the original specification when these units were supplied

As above, the main issue was the non-standard layout
This is where the Class 158/170 hybrid seat plan comes from
 

LE Greys

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Yes, I am aware the buffet is in the centre coach and the number of seats in First Class was reduced
I am referring to the original reasons why this change occured
The buffet was turned within the set so that it was adjacent to the coach with the First Class
This was different to the original specification when these units were supplied

As above, the main issue was the non-standard layout
This is where the Class 158/170 hybrid seat plan comes from
I was rather hoping we'd see more buffets on the Aberdeen route, but First don't seem to have made the effort to market them at all.

Presumably, a number of the former E-G units will go to Inverness, so the Inverness-Aberdeen line will go over entirely to 170s. I hope that the other 158s up there will be replaced by 156s, but I don't really know. It's possible that the remaining Haymarket units will be displaced to somewhere else (Aberdeen or Dundee are possibilities) which would allow Haymarket to become an EMU-only depot, making operations easier there. However, that probably means the end of one of the Glasgow depots.
 

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There will still need to be diesels based in/near Edinburgh- for Fife primarily, but also the Waverly (not heard any indication it'll be electric) and possibly Shotts (unless those units are based in/near Glasgow?)
 

Failed Unit

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There will still need to be diesels based in/near Edinburgh- for Fife primarily, but also the Waverly (not heard any indication it'll be electric) and possibly Shotts (unless those units are based in/near Glasgow?)
Yep, the fife lines have no serious plans yet for electrification.

Number of units saved. Off peak (peak)

10 (16) Edinburgh - Glasgow
6 (10) Edinburgh - Dunblane
5 (10) Glasgow - Dunblane / Alloa.
4 (5) Glasgow - Cumbernauld / Falkirk

41 Units plus spares. That is the 158 fleet ;)

I suspect they will probably release 30 units. Can't see the 170s making it to wick as I don't think the demand is there, but could be wrong. Fife circle should really all be 6 car by 2016 (in peak).
 

Eng274

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There will need to be some diesels (156s, unless the extensive work to permit 158/170 usage is carried out) based at Glasgow to work the West Highland line, and Stranraer if it's still open. There isn't any indication of whether the Shotts eletrification gap will be 'infilled' so some DMUs would need to be kept for the Edinburgh - Shotts - Glasgow Central.

According to EGIP website a stabling facility will be built at Stirling. Assuming this isn't a full engineering depot as annotated, Haymarket will likely be converted for EMU maintenance.
 

rail-britain

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According to EGIP website a stabling facility will be built at Stirling. Assuming this isn't a full engineering depot as annotated, Haymarket will likely be converted for EMU maintenance.
The new Abbeyhill turnback will allow storage of up to three units

The Newcraighall services will be then operated by Fife Circle services, Haymarket depot will cover these diagrams
From what I can see there are no plans to fully electrify this depot (except the reception tracks)

The new Stirling depot will allow storage of up to nine units, primarily those commencing Dunblane and Alloa services

Eastfield will be electrified and will handle the majority of the remainder of overnight stabling

Bathgate will also be included for overnight stabling and will handle those commencing at Edinburgh Waverley

The rolling stock will initially be allocated to Shields Road
EGIP includes a contingency for a smaller maintenance depot at Portobello, if required, with construction around 2019

When stage 1 is completed services will operate between Queen Street and Falkirk (as they do at the moment) and stabled overnight at Stirling
There will be very little need for these units to visit Shields Road, but if they need to do this would be via the Whifflet route

When stage 2 is completed the revised timetable will then apply with services to Dunblane and Alloa only (no Falkirk Grahamston services)

With the first stage due to be completed in 2014, the rolling stock order needs to be in place by the end of this year, but I understand the specification has changed (yet again) and so won't be placed until 2013 (for delivery in 2015)
As a result DMU will probably continue until the entire project is fully electrified
 
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tbtc

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Yep, the fife lines have no serious plans yet for electrification.

Number of units saved. Off peak (peak)

10 (16) Edinburgh - Glasgow
6 (10) Edinburgh - Dunblane
5 (10) Glasgow - Dunblane / Alloa.
4 (5) Glasgow - Cumbernauld / Falkirk

41 Units plus spares. That is the 158 fleet ;)

I suspect they will probably release 30 units. Can't see the 170s making it to wick as I don't think the demand is there, but could be wrong. Fife circle should really all be 6 car by 2016 (in peak).
Are the Glasgow Central routes (Whifflet, East Kilbride, Paisley Canal) being done around the same time? (I appreciate that they don't fall under the EGIP banner)
 

rail-britain

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Are the Glasgow Central routes (Whifflet, East Kilbride, Paisley Canal) being done around the same time? (I appreciate that they don't fall under the EGIP banner)
Paisley Canal and Whifflet are due to be completed by 2014, at the same time as Stage 1 of EGIP, thus allowing ease of movement of EMU between Stirling and Shields Road

East Kilbride, Kilmarnock and Shotts will be completed thereafter
 

Scotrail84

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I don't know if anyone has a view point about if the rest of the Scotrail fleet of 170s should have 1st class fitted?

I have noticed recently a drastic increase of the SPT 170s as well as the few remaining 170s with no first class on the Edinburgh - Glasgow route. Including in the peak multiple SPT trains. Good for us standard class passengers but surely with the frequency this is happening at the moment it may be soon hitting revenue.

I know a train is better than a cancelation but it seems like Scotrail are still short of enough 170s with first class (or they are not very good at keeping them away from the Dunblane / Cumbernauld services)
SPT 170 478 on the 20:00 to qst.
 

jopsuk

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Paisley Canal and Whifflet are due to be completed by 2014, at the same time as Stage 1 of EGIP, thus allowing ease of movement of EMU between Stirling and Shields Road

East Kilbride, Kilmarnock and Shotts will be completed thereafter
Are those firm plans? Until it's done, it will be a little odd having a single diesel-only line out of the four E-G routes (though most of the "Via Carstairs" service is diesel XC services)

Waverly? I fear it will be diesel on cost grounds, despite how much sense it would make for it to be electric.
 
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