Scotrail 170s

[rail-britain]

Are those firm plans? Until it's done, it will be a little odd having a single diesel-only line out of the four E-G routes (though most of the "Via Carstairs" service is diesel XC services)

Those are the current timescales, there hasn't been any change since last year
The issue, which I pointed out above, will be the lack of new rolling stock, so DMU will continue until the entire scheme is completed and that pretty much applies to both EGIP and Glasgow South

I suspect this is why there is a proposal within the new ScotRail franchise proposal "the franchisee may acquire any available rolling stock" and this would cover this inital period until the new rolling stock arrives
However, I am not aware of any such suitable rolling stock that would be cascaded from other franchises between 2014 and 2015, and it does seem rather short-term

I will check next week as to the status of the rolling stock procurement as it is a few months since I last checked

 

[tbtc]

Paisley Canal and Whifflet are due to be completed by 2014, at the same time as Stage 1 of EGIP, thus allowing ease of movement of EMU between Stirling and Shields Road

East Kilbride, Kilmarnock and Shotts will be completed thereafter

Cheers.

So the number of units freed up by central belt electrification will be much more than fifty. Keep a couple of dozen 156s for the GSW, WHL, Far North and Kyle and ScotRail only need 170s for the rest of their diesel fleet.

 

[rail-britain]

41 Units plus spares. That is the 158 fleet
I suspect they will probably release 30 units

It will be far less than this

The new franchise has several options for the new franchisee to make a decision on rolling stock, including but not limited to -
A
They can either refurbish the Class 156 (as they will be due at the commencement of the franchise) or replace them
B
They can cascade existing units and acquire new or replacement DMU for specific routes (I assume this is in reference to the restrictions on the WHL)

The next consideration is the increase in frequencies on the main ScotRail Express services Glasgow / Edinburgh to Inverness / Aberdeen
This will pretty much take up the entire current Class 170 fleet

There are also some service specification changes, this will see air conditioning on the GSW and WHL routes

The future very much relies on the specific franchise company and what they plan to do
The cheapest option is probably to dispose of the Class 156 units, but I am not sure how the issue on the WHL can be resolved

 

[Failed Unit]

I thought the Inverness - perth and Aberdeen - Dundee routes were at capacity. Transport Scotland prefer to daul the A9 so I can't see improvements on these lines. The lines need it as the are uncompetive with coach in both quality and speed now.

 

[jopsuk]

Is there an actual issue with using 170s on the WHL? Or is the "not cleared" status just a "no-one's ever tried because there's no need" sort of thing? Presumably all the station loops are plenty long enough for even 2*3 car 170s (for the splitting services), given the charter and freight trains on the route.

 

[Failed Unit]

Is there an actual issue with using 170s on the WHL? Or is the "not cleared" status just a "no-one's ever tried because there's no need" sort of thing? Presumably all the station loops are plenty long enough for even 2*3 car 170s (for the splitting services), given the charter and freight trains on the route.

I think it is either platform step distances or plug doors. (can't see why the plugs would be an issue). The 170s could fit, but if there is an issue with the platforms it could be expensive. The 156s still have life left in them.

 

[jopsuk]

Plug doors surely can't be an issue given slam doors aren't a problem?

 

[marks87]

I suspect they will probably release 30 units. Can't see the 170s making it to wick as I don't think the demand is there, but could be wrong. Fife circle should really all be 6 car by 2016 (in peak).

Would it be possible to shorten some 170s to 2-car for the Far North/Kyle lines, with the displaced centre coaches being used to lengthen some of the other units (for Edinburgh/Glasgow-Aberdeen and peak Fife Circle, which could then run 7/8-car if the platforms allow)?

 

[tbtc]

Would it be possible to shorten some 170s to 2-car for the Far North/Kyle lines, with the displaced centre coaches being used to lengthen some of the other units (for Edinburgh/Glasgow-Aberdeen and peak Fife Circle, which could then run 7/8-car if the platforms allow)?

It ought to be straightforward, given the numbers of two coach 170s south of the border (TPE, LM, GA, XC and the similar 171s with SN).

However if FSR don't like having some units with First Class and some without it then giving them two/three/four coach 170s may confuse them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The next consideration is the increase in frequencies on the main ScotRail Express services Glasgow / Edinburgh to Inverness / Aberdeen

Is there space on the line north of Perth for more trains (given the long single track sections)? Or really demand for much more than two trains an hour from Aberdeen to Dundee?

 

[Scotrail84]

We can only run with a maximum of 6 coaches when working DMU's in multiple.

 

[marks87]

We can only run with a maximum of 6 coaches when working DMU's in multiple.

There was a Tweet from ScotRail earlier that suggests there's a peak-time Aberdeen to Inverness that usually runs with 7:

ScotRail ‏@ScotRail
The 17:18 Aberdeen-Inverness service will run with 6 carriages instead of 7 due to a mechanical fault.We apologise for this.

Presumably 2x158+1x170 (but today run as 2x170 or 3x158).

 

[jopsuk]

7 is now the standard formation for that train.

Rather than shortening, if the length is an issue, surely a straight swap with XC wouldn't go amiss?

 

[jamieintercity]

It ought to be straightforward, given the numbers of two coach 170s south of the border (TPE, LM, GA, XC and the similar 171s with SN).

However if FSR don't like having some units with First Class and some without it then giving them two/three/four coach 170s may confuse them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Is there space on the line north of Perth for more trains (given the long single track sections)? Or really demand for much more than two trains an hour from Aberdeen to Dundee?

There are already plans for an hourly service between arbroath and Glasgow queen street calling at the likes of gleneagles, broughty ferry, monifeith and carnoustie etc.

 

[Failed Unit]

There are already plans for an hourly service between arbroath and Glasgow queen street calling at the likes of gleneagles, broughty ferry, monifeith and carnoustie etc.

This should not really take many extra units when you consider the extras between Glasgow and Dundee that already exist. If they did make this hourly I wonder what would happen to Glasgow - Inverness which shares the path? Always to Edinburgh? That wouldn't go down well.

 

[Scotrail84]

There was a Tweet from ScotRail earlier that suggests there's a peak-time Aberdeen to Inverness that usually runs with 7:



Presumably 2x158+1x170 (but today run as 2x170 or 3x158).

Never heard of this, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I've never seen or worked any more than a 6 car DMU in passenger service.

 

[jopsuk]

You never having done something doesn't mean it can't be done- though on your routes there are perhaps platform length restrictions? Scotrail made a fairly public fuss about doing this when it started!

 

[rail-britain]

I thought the Inverness - perth and Aberdeen - Dundee routes were at capacity

That is pretty much the case at present
However Network Rail are due to commence route enhancements between Inverness - Perth within the next few weeks, and between Aberdeen - Perth early next year

As mentioned previously, the plan is to have an hourly Inverness - Perth - Edinburgh (passenger) service once this work is completed in 2014
Unfortunately, this also means an end to the direct Glasgow service
Due to the lack of rolling stock until 2015 (Class 170 cascade) the Inverness - Perth service will split with every second hour continuing to Edinburgh
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We can only run with a maximum of 6 coaches when working DMU's in multiple.

Presumably this depends on the route, as the operational maximum is 4 units (8 engines)
There are 8 coach diagrams, between Glasgow Central and Corkerhill, using four Class 156 units

 

[Scotrail84]

You never having done something doesn't mean it can't be done- though on your routes there are perhaps platform length restrictions? Scotrail made a fairly public fuss about doing this when it started!

I didn't say it didn't happen, I said id never heard of it and I've never worked more than 6. Platform length shouldn't be a problem after all a 5 car stopped at Invergowrie yesterday.

 

[Scotrail84]

[QUOTE
Presumably this depends on the route, as the operational maximum is 4 units (8 engines)
There are 8 coach diagrams, between Glasgow Central and Corkerhill, using four Class 156 units[/QUOTE]

ECS movement Rail Britain ??

 

[Failed Unit]

Presumably this depends on the route, as the operational maximum is 4 units (8 engines)
There are 8 coach diagrams, between Glasgow Central and Corkerhill, using four Class 156 units

?

Not sure what you are trying to say.

For the sprinters it is the number of cabs that is the issue, maximum 8 rather than engines which you may be trying to say. The only way you can get a 12 car 158 is if they are all 3 car. The longest 153 you can get is 4 car.

The 7 car Aberdeen working is often mentioned on the propaganda mag. Quite impressive for a rural route and i understand it is still full

 

[Scotrail84]

?

Not sure what you are trying to say.

For the sprinters it is the number of cabs that is the issue, maximum 8 rather than engines which you may be trying to say. The only way you can get a 12 car 158 is if they are all 3 car. The longest 153 you can get is 4 car.

The 7 car Aberdeen working is often mentioned on the propaganda mag. Quite impressive for a rural route and i understand it is still full

I've seen a 9 car for the shed before but that is quite normal.

 

[rail-britain]

There used to be a three Class 170 movement from Edinburgh to Haymarket depot, but on my last few visits this hasn't taken place and the longest now is a one Class 158 and two Class 170

 

[LE Greys]

I think it is either platform step distances or plug doors. (can't see why the plugs would be an issue). The 170s could fit, but if there is an issue with the platforms it could be expensive. The 156s still have life left in them.

That and the fact that it would be a complete waste of fuel. 170s are simply not designed for routes like that, top speed 70mph (more normally 60) with lots of intermediate stations and some very tough gradients. A high-geared 170 would have a lot of trouble dealing with a route like that, especially when it could be used more-profitably elsewhere (Aberdeen-Inverness for instance). That's one of the reasons they considered ETS 66s for the Deerstalker rather than 67s. The WHL is a 156's paradise, precisely the sort of line they were made for.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've seen a 9 car for the shed before but that is quite normal.

That happens at Aberdeen sometimes, usually the result of a pair picking up a single unit from one of the bays when there are no spare drivers. Normally only goes as far as the sidings.

 

[rail-britain]

A high-geared 170 would have a lot of trouble dealing with a route like that

The new franchisee has a lot more flexibility when the next franchise starts
They could specify a number of Class 170 units be modified for the route
Equally, this could be extended to the GSW, where this would also be beneficial
However they would need to work out the cost of this against the Class 156 refurbushment (which will be due very early into the new franchise)
The alternative is to order a new batch of DMU, but unless other franchises are also ordering similar such DMU this will be very unlikely

It's a sad day when the WHL and GSW receive hand me downs, instead of new units

 

[jamieintercity]

That is pretty much the case at present
However Network Rail are due to commence route enhancements between Inverness - Perth within the next few weeks, and between Aberdeen - Perth early next year

Where did you get this information from and what works are they expected to do on these lines?

 

[Failed Unit]

It's a sad day when the WHL and GSW receive hand me downs, instead of new units

What is so specail about them? I would expect thier traffic volumes to justfy "hand me downs" after they had done thier stint on profitable routes.

 

[rail-britain]

Where did you get this information from and what works are they expected to do on these lines?

I am a contractor for HiTrans, there are loads of documents available about this route enhancement

Network Rail :
Perth - Inverness route enhancement ICP programme
Work has already been completed or commenced
Line speed improvements
Signalling changes

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...\Infrastructure Capability Programme\Scotland
(enhancements to bridge line speeds, completed)

 

[Maxfly]

?

Not sure what you are trying to say.

For the sprinters it is the number of cabs that is the issue, maximum 8 rather than engines which you may be trying to say. The only way you can get a 12 car 158 is if they are all 3 car. The longest 153 you can get is 4 car.

The 7 car Aberdeen working is often mentioned on the propaganda mag. Quite impressive for a rural route and i understand it is still full

Am sure there is a pic somewhere of a maximum length 156 set of, I thought 12 cars on culloden viaduct. Cannot remember where i seen this pic and could very easily be mistaken

 

[rail-britain]

Am sure there is a pic somewhere of a maximum length 156 set of, I thought 12 cars on culloden viaduct. Cannot remember where i seen this pic and could very easily be mistaken

Voltage drop tests, with the newly delivered Class 156 units to Inverness (as they sat for a few weeks with nothing to do)
http://metcam.co.uk.nstempintl.com/1980s.htm
6 sets

They had to perform this as Inverness was using 3 car sets, so there was a possibility of pairs of these operating together
Two of these then might have ended up coupled together, in order to move the other "failed" set off the Aberdeen - Inverness line
As a result of this, a restriction was put into place such that these pairs were never coupled together, but this still left the issue of the late evening Aberdeen - Inverness service, and so 156458 remained solely on this duty (which in turn was replaced by 156436 after the 158 introduction)

 

[Maxfly]

Thanks, that's the one and cheers for the info