ScotRail: actions such as skip stopping during disruption

[PHILIPE]

It inconveniences a few for the benefit of a lot more

 

[scotraildriver]

I would say it should only be done if the skipped stops are announced in time for passengers to alight from the train at a station where can join a following train serving the missed stops without an excessive wait.

This is generally the case. It is highly unusual to change the stopping pattern after the service has departed as the driver and guard have to be given a "special stop order" before departure. Passengers who get overcarried normally have simply not read the screens or heard announcements.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

It's an absolute shambles and ScotRail, rightly so are getting hammered for it. I pay over the odds enough for my commute to and from work and when they decide to skips station because a train is a few minutes late is a disgrace. Unfortunately this is not just a problem on the E&G line. Just take a look at the Fife Circle and the services in the West of Scotland.

Unfortunately, Humza Yousaf doesn't seem to have the backbone the guts to pull them into line. Oh and in regards the passengers hearing announcements, it's a bit hard to get off the train when the skip order has been given while on the move. Recently, an E&G expressed from Polmont to Glasgow and skipped Falkirk High, and passengers weren't actually told it was skipping until they have left Polmont...

And when you ask the Twitter team for help...well I'll leave that one up to the imagination.

 

[scotraildriver]

Unfortunately there is really only 1 solution to eliminate the problem and that would be to reduce the service. Skip stopping has become more prevalent recently as Scotrail increase the number of services to try to meet demand. Take the E & G as an example. The local Dunblane/Alloa service depart Edinburgh and Qn St 3 minutes after the E & G. So any more than a 3 minute late start either delays the local service as well, which subsequently delays more trains around Stirli g, or depart the local on time and delay the E & G all the way to Falkirk. Doing this would cause the train to get later and later and after 2 runs would be on the same time as the following service. These situations occur all over the network so maybe a slight reduction in the number of trains to improve reliability should be considered. There really isn't any other solution.

 

[Carntyne]

Not to this extent. You should be ashamed for supporting such bad practise purely for financial gain.

Why would it be any different under nationalisation. The same Control taking the same decisions for the same reasons. What do they gain financially?

It's done to recover the service for the benefit of the majority.

 

[Highlandspring]

Edit - actually on reflection I don't think it's a good idea for me to post on this thread since there's a risk that comments I make could end up printed in the Scotsman by a lazy 'Transport Correspondent' so I'm out.

 

[47271]

Edit - actually on reflection I don't think it's a good idea for me to post on this thread since there's a risk that comments I make could end up printed in the Scotsman by a lazy 'Transport Correspondent' so I'm out.

You might as well duck out, it seems to be a divisive subject where a large proportion of people refuse to accept that it's the only way to recover service and minimise larger issues in certain circumstances.

Lack of communication with passengers, such as the Polmont example given above if true, is inexcusable. That said, in all the years I experienced skip stopping on the E&G never once was I unclear that my train was about to do it. But then I do read departure boards and listen to announcements.

I too have no more to say on this subject.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

You might as well duck out, it seems to be a divisive subject where a large proportion of people refuse to accept that it's the only way to recover service and minimise larger issues in certain circumstances.

Lack of communication with passengers, such as the Polmont example given above if true, is inexcusable. That said, in all the years I experienced skip stopping on the E&G never once was I unclear that my train was about to do it. But then I do read departure boards and listen to announcements.

I too have no more to say on this subject.

You should maybe try a few more lines in Glasgow and the West of Scotland. Passengers are frequently left at wrong stations because no announcements have been made that trains are expressing. It's happened more often that not on the Airdrie line.

I accept that that they are trying to minimise delay but when the delays are most often than not under 30 minutes, it's a bit of a slap in the face the passengers to get nothing back in return. I wonder if Alex Hynes or Humza Yousaf has ever been on an North Clyde, Argyle Line or Fife Circle train to experience the abysmal performance.

Rightfully so, Liz Smith MSP and now Alison Harris MSP raised questions in Parliament to try and get some answers.

 

[Altnabreac]

All this political pressure is going to lead to is more cancellations instead.

Then it will be nice and clear what’s happening to everyone as there’ll be no train for anyone.

 

[JohnR]

It inconveniences a few for the benefit of a lot more

Not in my experience when its dont at peak times. When an Edinburgh to Aberdeen service skips stops because it is late, a large number of people are left on the platform at Dundee, certainly more than the few who stay on board. On a normal day, this service is loaded 80-115% capacity on leaving Dundee. When it is running fast to Aberdeen its usually more like a third full with plenty of empty tables.

 

[Kite159]

Are Scotrail any worse for removing stops compared to Merseyrail?

 

[Loop & Link]

I like to get the delay sorted on one trip and get the workings right time again on the first late running trip.

Sometimes you have at the bigger picture, if the train runs late, and knocks something else, then that’s 2 PPM failures, even more if the other train get knocked on its next trip.

 

[Rob Lightbody]

Hi,

I've joined the forum so I can particiate in this fascinating topic.

I live on the Milngavie line. This is a dead-end line serving a huge amount of commuters with suburban stops at Hillfoot, Bearsden, Westerton and Anniesland heading into Glasgow City Centre.

In the early 90s, the line was single-tracked, and this has now led to the situation where this line has the worst performance in Scotland, and commuters are having an appaling service at peak times, with frequent cancellations and stop-skipping. The statistics do not show the true picture - which is of commuters giving up on this rail line altogether. When your train is so frequently cancelled that you cannot depend on it if you're going somewhere important, the service has completely failed. The problem with stop-skipping, if you're standing on the platform, is one moment you're going to be a few minutes late for work, the next you're going to be 35 minutes late (need to wait for the next extremely over-crowded train). This affects everyone at every stop all at once, as well as the people on the train who, yes, are frequently trapped on board and end up further along the line than expected.

I truly believe that if they stopped stop-skipping, the overall service would improve for the public, the managers would have a clearer picture of what's going wrong and why, and things would improve.

 

[scotraildriver]

Prior to the opening of the Airdrie Bathgate line in 2010 Transport Scotland were warned that running trains all the way to Edinburgh from Milngavie was a risky strategy due to the single line constraints. However it went ahead with the results we are now. A service from Milngave must be on time at Westerton or it can cause serious delay right into Edinburgh affecting services as far as Aberdeen. There is alot of work ongoing at the moment to try to increase turnaround tines at Milngave - currently it is so tight even a driver using the toilet is causing late running. Again though, the only solution might be to reduce tbe number of trains. Hopeful there will be improvement soon though - it certainly isn't unnoticed by senior managers.

 

[Highlandspring]

Hopeful there will be improvement soon though - it certainly isn't unnoticed by senior managers.

...including one very senior manager who lives in Milngavie and uses the train to get to and from work every day.

 

[gsnedders]

Prior to the opening of the Airdrie Bathgate line in 2010 Transport Scotland were warned that running trains all the way to Edinburgh from Milngavie was a risky strategy due to the single line constraints. However it went ahead with the results we are now. A service from Milngave must be on time at Westerton or it can cause serious delay right into Edinburgh affecting services as far as Aberdeen. There is alot of work ongoing at the moment to try to increase turnaround tines at Milngave - currently it is so tight even a driver using the toilet is causing late running. Again though, the only solution might be to reduce tbe number of trains. Hopeful there will be improvement soon though - it certainly isn't unnoticed by senior managers.

Well, there are other solutions, like not running them all the way to Edinburgh, as TS were warned was a bad idea. Also the option of reinstating a second track to Milngavie exists, albeit now expensively (AIUI). I mean, there are more options.

 

[Rob Lightbody]

...including one very senior manager who lives in Milngavie and uses the train to get to and from work every day.

Well I hope he relies on the 7.39 service from Milngavie, which is maybe the worst affected service of all (although when I requested an FoI on this, they told me that they don't actually have punctuality figures for a particular timetabled service, which left me dumbfounded).

Well, there are other solutions, like not running them all the way to Edinburgh, as TS were warned was a bad idea. Also the option of reinstating a second track to Milngavie exists, albeit now expensively (AIUI). I mean, there are more options.

Why is the second track option so expensive? Nothing has been built or changed where the track was (has it ?) and its not really over a huge distance... the local (otherwise useless) MSP is pushing for this and has a lot of support.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Well I hope he relies on the 7.39 service from Milngavie, which is maybe the worst affected service of all.

Just had a thought that if he lives in Milngavie himself, he won't be directly personally affected by the skip-stopping will he? It's the intermediate stations that are suffering.

 

[DuncanS]

...and we're stop skipping this morning - sod anyone who has bought a ticket at EP, Linlithgow or Polmont (or someone wanting to get off there)

 

[Loop & Link]

Would have lost it’s path at Winchburgh Jn otherwise and would have been absolutely walloped by 1N80, re the above service.

 

[Stopper]

It must happen daily on the E-G line. The 13:15 E-G service was 10 minutes late and skipped Linlithgow but kept stops at the less busy Polmont and Falkirk High.

 

[Mathew S]

Way back in the day, when I used it to travel to college, it wasn't at all unusual for a delayed Northern stopper train on the Southport line to be converted to semi-fast, this missing out my stop. I then had to wait an hour for the next stopping service and miss an hour of college. On one memorable occasion I actually nearly missed an exam.

I can accept that an hour delay as a result of skip-stopping is harsh.

My understanding, though, is that services on the E-G line are 15 mins frequency? If that's the case then I would agree most strongly with those who are pointing out that skipping stops to recover the service is the best option. A 15 minute delay is largely irrelevant, and it's for the benefit of recovering the service to timetable for every other passenger that day.

A nice thing to whinge about by all means but, in all seriousness, if this is the worst thing commuters on these routes have to put up with then they really should count themselves lucky.

 

[TheEdge]

I think this boils down to the fact, and I don't mean this in a condescending way, in an operational sense no single journey is important. The most important part of running a rail service is making sure trains are where they need to be when they need to be, hence the obsession with making up minutes and delay attribution. Obviously we would prefer to manage that while stopping as advertised and getting everyone where they need to be when they need to get there.

The TOCs are skipping stops to achieve that, as delays can cause snowballing delays throughout the day, even relatively small ones. If you think the situation now is bad if Scotrail (or any other TOC) stopped skipping stops, or any other forms of service recovery the railways would grind to a total halt. I know its bad if you are someone hit by the skipping but it really is for everyones benefit.

 

[Rob Lightbody]

Is it possible to get stop skipping statistics per line? Some lines are worse affected than others, some with daily disruption. An overall average statistic for the entire network isn't giving a clear picture.

 

[kilonewton]

Skip stopping is fine on the E&G for those travelling between the two cities, but for those of us using the intermediate stop, it’s a complete pain in the rear.
If a train from Glasgow suddenly runs straight through, Polmont & Linlithgow have an hour between services, similarly for Croy to/from Edinburgh.
A situation I found myself in on a Friday night in Glasgow before Christmas, the 2200 was running late, so ran straight through to Haymarket, the 2230 was even later but didn’t skip. 2200 was the 380, therefore more able to catch up rather than the 2230 170 service.
At least I got my delay repay, they even paid for the full hour delay when it was “only” 50 minutes.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't know how many people commenting have actually been responsible for taking the decision to alter a service to 'skip' stops.

I have.

And I can say, hand on heart, when I took such decisions it was only ever done to minimise the total impact of delays on passengers. Clearly there are winners and losers, but the intention is always to have have a net benefit. Some people will, regrettably, be disadvantaged. However more people will avoid delay altogether.

 

[Stopper]

Way back in the day, when I used it to travel to college, it wasn't at all unusual for a delayed Northern stopper train on the Southport line to be converted to semi-fast, this missing out my stop. I then had to wait an hour for the next stopping service and miss an hour of college. On one memorable occasion I actually nearly missed an exam.

I can accept that an hour delay as a result of skip-stopping is harsh.

My understanding, though, is that services on the E-G line are 15 mins frequency? If that's the case then I would agree most strongly with those who are pointing out that skipping stops to recover the service is the best option. A 15 minute delay is largely irrelevant, and it's for the benefit of recovering the service to timetable for every other passenger that day.

A nice thing to whinge about by all means but, in all seriousness, if this is the worst thing commuters on these routes have to put up with then they really should count themselves lucky.

The majority of the stops on the E-G line are only half hourly though. Considering every call on the line has around a million passengers a year that’s not good enough to skip stops. If you skip a stop at Linlithgow, Polmont or Croy that leaves an hour gap.

 

[Starmill]

I really don't see the problem. I was recently waiting for a train which skipped all 5 of its stops to go from 8L to RT, with a half-hourly service. That seemed a bit extreme to me but there was no denying it was effective. Aside from that I can't think of a single time when a stop has been skipped when I thought it was a bad idea. Cut stops count as part cancellations I think? Obviously Delay Repay also has to be paid if relevant.

What gets to me is when stops are not skipped, on a train which is running late, that is crush loaded so is taking longer and longer at each platform, with another train less than 5 minutes behind it. This is exactly what happened to me recently on the Snow Hill line. As a result of the train being 26 minutes late it was then turned at Droitwich Spa, imposing further delay on me with my destination of Worcester Foregate Street.

If you skip a stop at Linlithgow, Polmont or Croy that leaves an hour gap.

All of Linlithgow, Polmont and Croy have more than 2 services per hour.

 

[Mathew S]

The majority of the stops on the E-G line are only half hourly though. Considering every call on the line has around a million passengers a year that’s not good enough to skip stops. If you skip a stop at Linlithgow, Polmont or Croy that leaves an hour gap.

I didn't realise that. Nevertheless, if the alternatives are a) to have the service disrupted for the rest of the day, with knock-on effects to other services and potentially other areas of the network; or b) for ScotRail to run fewer services in the first place so that skipping wasn't necessary then I still think that skipping is the option which will inconvenience the smallest number of people and keep disruption to a minimum. I'm well aware that's no consolation when it's your stop that's skipped on the train you wanted to catch, but in the grand scheme of running the railway it does appear to be the least worst option.

 

[Starmill]

Recently, an E&G expressed from Polmont to Glasgow and skipped Falkirk High, and passengers weren't actually told it was skipping until they have left Polmont...

I was once on a Thameslink service which ran fast from Haywards Heath to Brighton (we had been booked to call all stations). There was no announcement about that on the train at all, although the screens on the platform at Haywards Heath did say 'Brighton only'.