ScotRail cancelling services July 2024

[najaB]

I think the issue is changing the diagrams.

Isn't it also the case that every driver who signs HSTs can also drive 158/170s but not the other way around?

 

[hexagon789]

Isn't it also the case that every driver who signs HSTs can also drive 158/170s but not the other way around?

Disclosure here: I'm going off memory of a different thread from a few years ago but something like this arrangement seems familiar.

Say you have four links on a depot, 1 & 3 sign HSTs but not 2 or 4.

So yes, I think you are correct there, but nevertheless there appear to be 13 HSTs out today, so it's not a massive drop off.

 

[InOban]

I think it is rather cheeky of aslef to complain that Scotrail have failed to recruit enough drivers; they are training them as fast as they can, and AFAIK have no difficulty in recruiting these trainees. They had started this before Covid but, unlike some other TOCs, were unable to agree safe procedures for on-train learning during that time. They therefore emerged with an even greater shortage (they had and have a lot of drivers nearing retirement ), hence the drastic cutback in services at that time.

I believe that only LNER recruit trainees in Scotland so Scotrail must also be vulnerable to poaching by TPE, XC, and the various Freight operators.

The question why it takes at least 12 months to train a driver is for another thread.

 

[Leven Railuser]

The timetable may well be live across planner apps now, but it only covers this week.
It seems ridiculous to me that the planners/apps are showing services next week we know won't run. (the 16:00 from Wick for example.)

I don't know the IT behind it, or the planning procedures - will this change need to wait until the weekend timetable goes live tomorrow? Or will the temp timetable be updated on a week by week basis until such a time that the full timetable can run

It just comes over as incredibly amateur. Any public facing Scotrail staff will be earning their crust this week, that's for sure

 

[Dieseldriver]

The question why it takes at least 12 months to train a driver is for another thread.

Because that’s generally the minimum time it takes to train a competent Train Driver?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I believe that only LNER recruit trainees in Scotland so Scotrail must also be vulnerable to poaching by TPE, XC, and the various Freight operators.

XC definitely recruit trainee drivers in Scotland, while LNER don’t technically recruit trainees the old way anymore. You now have to meet the minimum apprenticeship requirements to be able to apply for the role with LNER, or earn them during the process if you haven’t got them. It’s very controversial and is ultimately only there to save money due to a small government subsidy that comes with an apprenticeship. Given TPE’s involvement with OLR now I suspect they will go the same way (if they haven’t already).

You’ll find ScotRail poach way more rail staff from other TOC’s than the other TOC’s poach from ScotRail now. Aside from the fact ScotRail employs a much higher amount of staff in Scotland (obviously), various other issues are meaning many are choosing to leave the TOC’s that are based south of the border. Previously it was about a 50/50 split.

 

[SandsofEss]

Argh. It looks like this will scupper our return from holiday. We're currently booked onto the 10:35 from Duncraig on Sunday 28th July. Returning to Kent via Inverness, Edinburgh and Kings Cross, with three children and luggage in tow.

Based on the limited information available, it appears the earliest departure from Duncraig will now be the 15:27. If true, that makes it impossible to get home that day.

What are our rights in this situation? I assume Scotrail won't pay for overnight accommodation en route?

Complicating matters is the fact we're travelling on split tickets. A mix of Off-Peak Singles, but then also an LNER Family Advance ticket on the Edinburgh to London leg.

I appreciate it's an evolving situation, but any advice on our options would be gratefully received.

 

[gordonjahn]

Argh. It looks like this will scupper our return from holiday. We're currently booked onto the 10:35 from Duncraig on Sunday 28th July. Returning to Kent via Inverness, Edinburgh and Kings Cross, with three children and luggage in tow.

Based on the limited information available, it appears the earliest departure from Duncraig will now be the 15:27. If true, that makes it impossible to get home that day.

What are our rights in this situation? I assume Scotrail won't pay for overnight accommodation en route?

Complicating matters is the fact we're travelling on split tickets. A mix of Off-Peak Singles, but then also an LNER Family Advance ticket on the Edinburgh to London leg.

I appreciate it's an evolving situation, but any advice on our options would be gratefully received.

The page at https://www.scotrail.co.uk/temporary-timetable-0 says:

If your planned trip is affected by these timetable changes, you can seek a refund with no additional admin fee.Alternatively, customers can use pre-purchased ScotRail tickets on affected routes dated from Wednesday, 10 July, on an unaffected service. This can be earlier or later in the day, the day before, or alternatively up to two days after the date of disruption.

I guess you can re-org to leave the day before to still hit the LNER Family Advance (using the same ticket the day before), or refund and do something different, but suspect that's the options available.

 

[InvHst]

Argh. It looks like this will scupper our return from holiday. We're currently booked onto the 10:35 from Duncraig on Sunday 28th July. Returning to Kent via Inverness, Edinburgh and Kings Cross, with three children and luggage in tow.

Based on the limited information available, it appears the earliest departure from Duncraig will now be the 15:27. If true, that makes it impossible to get home that day.

What are our rights in this situation? I assume Scotrail won't pay for overnight accommodation en route?

Complicating matters is the fact we're travelling on split tickets. A mix of Off-Peak Singles, but then also an LNER Family Advance ticket on the Edinburgh to London leg.

I appreciate it's an evolving situation, but any advice on our options would be gratefully received.

Altered timetable isn't available yet for the weekend Kyle's summer Sunday service will probably run tbh as they only work a limited time of the year and rotate booked Sundays

 

[InOban]

XC definitely recruit trainee drivers in Scotland, while LNER don’t technically recruit trainees the old way anymore. You now have to meet the minimum apprenticeship requirements to be able to apply for the role with LNER, or earn them during the process if you haven’t got them. It’s very controversial and is ultimately only there to save money due to a small government subsidy that comes with an apprenticeship. Given TPE’s involvement with OLR now I suspect they will go the same way (if they haven’t already).

You’ll find ScotRail poach way more rail staff from other TOC’s than the other TOC’s poach from ScotRail now. Aside from the fact ScotRail employs a much higher amount of staff in Scotland (obviously), various other issues are meaning many are choosing to leave the TOC’s that are based south of the border. Previously it was about a 50/50 split.

Thanks for the information. I was only going by the regular ads on FB from LNER. I wonder whether the new GBR will establish a standard training course for the 'classroom 'stages before the more localised traction and route learning. But OT.

 

[kkong]

Let's be honest.

Despite Aslef's often-stated desire for a full complement of drivers to be employed by ScotRail - there will be a fair number of drivers who won't want this.

It would mean no (or much reduced) rest-day working and overtime required.

If this happened, they'd lose leverage in negotiations... what is happening right now wouldn't be happening.

 

[MorningStar]

What is the benefit to the rail company to depend on rest working etc? Is it cheaper?

when they advertise for drivers they get inundated with applicants so why not employ extra drivers to avoid rest working.

airline pilots are restricted to hours worked per month, while driving a train is not as difficult as driving a train, I would think it still involves concentrating and protecting travellers, should the hours not be restricted per month too?

worse in Scotland because the income tax laws are not conducive to earning more, you cannot blame the drivers for not working more hours

 

[chuff chuff]

Let's be honest.

Despite Aslef's often-stated desire for a full complement of drivers to be employed by ScotRail - there will be a fair number of drivers who won't want this.

It would mean no (or much reduced) rest-day working and overtime required.

If this happened, they'd lose leverage in negotiations... what is happening right now wouldn't be happening.

It's a mix the vast majority have no interest in working their rest days and there are those who almost relie on them.
Think Aslef itself would prefer the extra contributions.

 

[Falcon1200]

should the hours not be restricted per month too?

There are very strict rules on the hours safety-critical railway staff (which obviously includes Drivers) can work, which also covers rest periods between shifts.

 

[MrJeeves]

while driving a train is not as difficult as driving a train

I'd say they're pretty well matched...

I thought there were already steadfast rules about hours and mandatory breaks between workings and time between shifts?

I have always wondered what happens during heavy disruption when trains get delayed for many hours enroute. Can the driver continue to the next station even if that means breaking these rules?

 

[Bill57p9]

What is the benefit to the rail company to depend on rest working etc? Is it cheaper?

when they advertise for drivers they get inundated with applicants so why not employ extra drivers to avoid rest working.

airline pilots are restricted to hours worked per month, while driving a train is not as difficult as driving a train, I would think it still involves concentrating and protecting travellers, should the hours not be restricted per month too?

worse in Scotland because the income tax laws are not conducive to earning more, you cannot blame the drivers for not working more hours

It is cheaper to employ fewer drivers and rely on overtime.

Realistically unions are in a bit of a bind on this one: Some staff rather like their OT, and as has been mentioned, it gives the union an obvious negotiating pawn. On the flip side, Unions' self interest would be to have more members, I.e. more staff.

There are very strict rules on the hours safety-critical railway staff (which obviously includes Drivers) can work, which also covers rest periods between shifts.

Usually referred to as Hidden Rules, as they were recommended by the Hidden Report into the Clapham Junction rail disaster.

 

[hexagon789]

What is the benefit to the rail company to depend on rest working etc? Is it cheaper?

It generally is, yes.

when they advertise for drivers they get inundated with applicants so why not employ extra drivers to avoid rest working.

Probably because it's more expensive and the sheer amount of and length of training involved which would then need extrapolated to even more individuals.

airline pilots are restricted to hours worked per month, while driving a train is not as difficult as driving a train

Arguably it's more difficult, in the UK at least, as so much is reliant on memory and concentration. With limited exceptions, there is no autopilot; a driver must know all the signals, all the speed restrictions, and a lot more beyond. A plane may have more technical complexity but the actual driving I'd argue is more complex with a train.

should the hours not be restricted per month too?

There are strict rules on this - see the 'Hidden Rules'

 

[scotraildriver]

Thanks for the information. I was only going by the regular ads on FB from LNER. I wonder whether the new GBR will establish a standard training course for the 'classroom 'stages before the more localised traction and route learning. But OT.

The classroom stage is pretty much learning all the rulebook modules and being deemed competent on them. Given that all train operators are required to use the same rule book it's already pretty much standardised.

 

[InvHst]

Should be HA24 on 1T26 (0944 Aberdeen to Glasgow QS)



I think the issue is changing the diagrams.

For example the 1007 Glasgow to I'm is normally HST, but is 170 today because the morning Arbroath to Glasgow was used to form it, it normally forms the Dundee stopper immediately afterwards but this is withdrawn. The 1450 from Inverness is the return leg of the diagram of the 1007, and on arriving in Glasgow then goes on to form the 1741 to Aberdeen, which is why that service is a 170 today.

Whether this will continue or diagrams will be adjusted though...

1007 is a unit going forward as Aberdeen has 3 start of work requirements for hsts on this timetable and Eastfield has one which pulls the 536 deliberately as the 2nd last Aberdeen to Glasgow doesn't run in this timetable and that's Eastfields set so the 1450 and 1841 respectively will be a unit until further notice

 

[hexagon789]

1007 is a unit going forward as Aberdeen has 3 start of work requirements for hsts on this timetable and Eastfield has one which pulls the 536 deliberately as the 2nd last Aberdeen to Glasgow doesn't run in this timetable and that's Eastfields set so the 1450 and 1841 respectively will be a unit until further notice

Thank you, I don't suppose there's any chance of it being strengthened as the 1007 is usually the busiest Glasgow to Inverness and of course the following one at 1207 is currently withdrawn?

 

[snookertam]

The Glasgow/Aberdeen schedules are a throwback to the push pull days of the 1980s, with the Aberdeen arrival at Queen Street recessing for 90 minutes before the return working.

 

[MorningStar]

Thanks all for answers, I have never driven a train, it is on my to do list but I have a few hours flying aircraft.

still think it is more difficult flying an aeroplane especially at night when you are flying on instruments or even in thick cloud. I know autopilots do the hard work but you still have to work out descent and pattern to land.

it boils down to you need someone up front who has the once in a lifetime emergency and is capable of sorting it out and protecting the passengers.

not sure I could drive a train for a long period and concentrate 100% all the time at least flying there are times when the workload is low

 

[najaB]

still think it is more difficult flying an aeroplane especially at night when you are flying on instruments or even in thick cloud. I know autopilots do the hard work but you still have to work out descent and pattern to land.

I agree that they're quite different, but both jobs require about the same level of skill and professionalism.

 

[hexagon789]

still think it is more difficult flying an aeroplane especially at night when you are flying on instruments or even in thick cloud. I know autopilots do the hard work but you still have to work out descent and pattern to land.

Train drivers have to drive in pitch black as well but with no computerised geographical aids and still need to know when to brake for stations or speed restrictions or junctions.

There are comparisons to be made but I'd still argue that in countries using route signalling and route knowledge its more difficult than flying a plane. In countries employing speed signalling, I would tend to accept there's more similarity.

it boils down to you need someone up front who has the once in a lifetime emergency and is capable of sorting it out and protecting the passengers.

not sure I could drive a train for a long period and concentrate 100% all the time at least flying there are times when the workload is low

Well this is ultimately it, they are being paid for concentration, knowledge, absolute adherence to rules and the safety and responsibility aspect really. Definitely strong parallels with airline Pilots there, yes.

 

[InvHst]

Thank you, I don't suppose there's any chance of it being strengthened as the 1007 is usually the busiest Glasgow to Inverness and of course the following one at 1207 is currently withdrawn?

I'd highly doubt it sadly as it comes off an Arbroath which isn't normally strengthened

 

[Abc100]

It appears that the temporary timetables are only currently for Monday to Friday services - as it’s Thursday evening does that mean Scotrail are running a weekend service as timetabled? The communication seems very poor!

 

[hexagon789]

It appears that the temporary timetables are only currently for Monday to Friday services - as it’s Thursday evening does that mean Scotrail are running a weekend service as timetabled? The communication seems very poor!

No I dont think so - I've already noticed some Saturday and Sunday changes on RTT. The E&G is showing as 2tph all day not 4tph on Saturday and just 1tph on Sunday for example.

 

[Abc100]

No I dont think so - I've already noticed some Saturday and Sunday changes on RTT. The E&G is showing as 2tph all day not 4tph on Saturday and just 1tph on Sunday for example.

Just checked RTT - very limited service Glasgow Aberdeen logged for Sunday with a lot of DMU use it seems. Poor show if there’s a 50% timetable reduction at the busiest time of the year (when tickets have been sold already for advance seats based on full service) that key Glasgow departures such as both the 1545 and 1745 northbound are short DMU sets - likely to cause chaos and lose public sympathy when overcrowding issues arise!

 

[hexagon789]

Glasgow departures such as both the 1545 and 1745 northbound are short DMU sets - likely to cause chaos and lose public sympathy when overcrowding issues arise!

They are booked units rather than subs, and as mentioned upthread it's too difficult to alter diagrams significantly on a temporary basis like this. The 1745 is booked 170+158 as a slight compensation.

 

[SandsofEss]

There are now some PDFs published on Scotrail's temporary timetable page, albeit not for all days.

For example, there's a Mon to Fri and a Saturday one for the Far North Line.