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ScotRail Class 314 future use?

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Haig paxton

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I understand that the class 314s are to begin to be scrapped when ScotRail start taking delivery of their new trains. This seems like a terrible waste as they still have a few years left in my opinion. Perhaps they could be coupled to a loco and run on diesel routes somewhere as additional capacity?
 
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Clansman

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I understand that the class 314s are to begin to be scrapped when ScotRail start taking delivery of their new trains. This seems like a terrible waste as they still have a few years left in my opinion. Perhaps they could be coupled to a loco and run on diesel routes somewhere as additional capacity?

The only place where you'll see a 314 coupled to a loco would be on the Boness Railway. They are in great condition as they were refurbished so I'd agree that they could be suitable elsewhere. St.Albans to Watford seems an attractive option as I've never seen a full train on that line in yonks, although they would probably be replaced within a couple of years afterwards. They'd have at most 10 more years elsewhere other than London.
 
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61653 HTAFC

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Being aluminium rather than steel they're both lighter and less prone to corrosion than the steel mk3-based units. As they're already 3-cars there's no messing around with moving compressors and whatnot. A SWT 455-esque refurbishment (perhaps fitting a toilet too) would make them handy little units for a few routes... However many of the suitable routes won't be getting wired anytime soon (Valley lines would be a good fit but they'd rack up the bills being kept in warm storage for the best part of a decade!).
 

Haig paxton

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Of course if they were to run coupled to a diesel loco, they could no longer operate in DOO mode with the driver being isolated from the rest of the train.
 
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NSEFAN

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Haig paxton said:
This seems like a terrible waste as they still have a few years left in my opinion.
What mechanical condition are these units actually in? 37 years is a good lifespan for a modern unit, so it wouldn't be so bad to withdraw them now.

Haig paxton said:
Perhaps they could be coupled to a loco and run on diesel routes somewhere as additional capacity?
This is in general not a workable solution these days. Most diesel locos are designed for lower acceleration freight, not start-stop passenger trains. If more diesels are needed, it'd be better to buy new efficient DMUs.

To use them on other routes would require OLE. In general, it's just not worth making major modifications to trains for a handful of years' usage.
 
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NotATrainspott

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Circumstances have meant that there is no use for 14 75mph 3x20m AC EMUs. The introduction of the Class 385 will mean a consistently modern fleet of EMUs will run the services into Central High Level station. Even if their 100mph top speed won't be used on most of the route, their superior performance will help them get out of the way of 125mph express services on the WCML north of Carstairs. 75mph 3-car EMUs aren't suitable for any other services being electrified before the trains are fully life-expired. The only possible use for them would be on the Valley Lines north of Cardiff but these now won't be wired until after the 314s have had it, and in any case 14 of them wouldn't be enough anyway. If the Valley Lines were to receive cascaded EMUs of a similar vintage they would use a selection of the 61 4-car Class 315s being freed up by Crossrail and the new London Overground stock within the same time frame as the new ScotRail trains.
 

AndrewE

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14 3-car AC EMU's in full working order would be a godsend to lots of areas, as long as a "can-do" fleet manager was prepared to grab them.

I know it would be a relatively small sub-fleet, but by keeping them in somewhere like East Manchester (e.g. Glossop lines) they would allow the other commuter services from Piccadilly to be increased to 6 or 8 cars.
Can you imagine any London commuter routes tolerating 2, 3 or 4-car peak-hour commuter services? (And railway management spokespeople having the brass neck to claim that the network is short of capacity?)
A
 

Clansman

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What about Edinburgh (or Haymarket) to Newcraighall during peak times to help reduce congestion on Tweedbank bound services (although you'd be creating congestion at Waverley though if services are delayed))? Could also speed up Borders journeys by about 10 mins I'd think if they skipped both Newcraighall and Brunstane. Could even run from Slateford for better connectivity. If they were ever to electrify and re-open the stations along the South Suburban Railway Circle then the 314s would be perfect for that route.
 
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Haig paxton

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There will only be 3 in operation by 2019, for the Paisley Canal line (2 for operation and 1 spare). So all would not be available at once. Either a period in storage or a gradual introduction elsewhere would have to happen. Of course they could still run in multiple even with a loco pulling or pushing them. A six or nine car crowd buster.
 

158722

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They will be going for scrap, along with the TSGN 313s, all the 315s the MerseyRail 507/508s and most likely, the Southern 313/2s and all the 317/1s. All gone by 2020. No further use, No further justification for life extension.
 

MatthewRead

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They will be going for scrap, along with the TSGN 313s, all the 315s the MerseyRail 507/508s and most likely, the Southern 313/2s and all the 317/1s. All gone by 2020. No further use, No further justification for life extension.
That's sad I was led to believe not so very long ago that they all still had some life left in them:cry:
 

tom1649

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Surely they'll preserve at least one PEP type EMU. Saying that the preservation record for EMUs is not a good one.

I for one will be very sorry to see them go. They are good simple units which could be put to further use.
 
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NotATrainspott

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14 3-car AC EMU's in full working order would be a godsend to lots of areas, as long as a "can-do" fleet manager was prepared to grab them.

I know it would be a relatively small sub-fleet, but by keeping them in somewhere like East Manchester (e.g. Glossop lines) they would allow the other commuter services from Piccadilly to be increased to 6 or 8 cars.
Can you imagine any London commuter routes tolerating 2, 3 or 4-car peak-hour commuter services? (And railway management spokespeople having the brass neck to claim that the network is short of capacity?)
A

These services are already getting brand new EMUs from CAF to replace the 323s. This is happening at exactly the same time as the 314s are becoming available, so there's no justification for them to have even temporary use down in Manchester.

What about Edinburgh (or Haymarket) to Newcraighall during peak times to help reduce congestion on Tweedbank bound services (although you'd be creating congestion at Waverley though if services are delayed))? Could also speed up Borders journeys by about 10 mins I'd think if they skipped both Newcraighall and Brunstane. Could even run from Slateford for better connectivity. If they were ever to electrify and re-open the stations along the South Suburban Railway Circle then the 314s would be perfect for that route.

All ScotRail EMU services to/from Edinburgh will be run by Class 385s maintained at the new Hitachi depot at Millerhill. If additional EMUs were needed for capacity relief to Brunstane and Newcraighall they would best come from the depot next door. Since so few of them would be required, it would be more cost-effective just to add a few more trains onto the new order rather than try to maintain a handful of instances of a totally obsolete design in a brand new purpose-built depot.

However, it is rather unlikely that any EMUs would be needed just for Newcraighall and Brunstane given that it's the Midlothian stations on the Borders Railway which are important. Passive provision was included in the design of the new line for a 4tph service to Gorebridge but it will be well past the 314's demise when that is needed. Given that the main constraint on capacity in the peak is the lack of extra paths, the best way to deal with that is to extend trains to be as long as possible and there is no way that the 314s can help in that regard.
 

AndrewE

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Surely they'll preserve at least one PEP type EMU. Saying that the preservation record for EMUs is not a good one.

I for one will be very sorry to see them go. They are good simple units which could be put to further use.

Quite. Someone please remind us of the current procurement time for new units? (And that's assuming finance can be found, etc etc.)

As I said earlier, complaints that the network is overloaded just don't ring true outside the London commuter belt. 12-car trains would triple the capacity - but I forgot, in the rest of the country this isn't essential infrastructure, it's a business opportunity and building or maintaining peak-hour capacity doesn't line shareholders' pockets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
These services are already getting brand new EMUs from CAF to replace the 323s. This is happening at exactly the same time as the 314s are becoming available, so there's no justification for them to have even temporary use down in Manchester.

How many emus for Manchester to replace the existing ones, by the way?
It's a fair point that they won't be available until new stuff is being introduced, but I wonder how much increase in capacity is planned...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
there is no way that the 314s can help in that regard.
Not even by having some 3-unit (9 car) sets available for use in the peaks?
 

ChiefPlanner

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Surely they'll preserve at least one PEP type EMU. Saying that the preservation record for EMUs is not a good one.

I for one will be very sorry to see them go. They are good simple units which could be put to further use.

If anything 313001 ought to be saved as a "PEP" type and the first of class as a dual voltage unit ...I believe York has first call on it , if they want it.
 

Philip Phlopp

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That's sad I was led to believe not so very long ago that they all still had some life left in them:cry:

Led by whom ?

They're all pretty much shot - they're suffering from various corrosion issues, the wiring is knackered, spare parts are getting harder to obtain and they need silly amounts of maintenance that the modern railway can't provide.

New designs can do twice the mileage with half the maintenance hours, that's also the underlying reason for SWT Class 455 AC motor conversion, for Class 321 AC motor conversion and helps the costs for Pacer withdrawal.

Depot space, jacking space, they're all at a premium, if a unit can be lifted less often, lifted in half the time, and needs little more than exams when it's on depot, if repairs can be completed in half or a third of the time, keeping old stock becomes a problem, particularly if you can then run more diagrams with fewer units, so you don't even need as many man-hours to do exams.

The industry is changing, it's not about the number of trains in service, it's about the number of seats you can provide on a route now, and sometimes throwing more stock at a route isn't any sort of solution at all.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If anything 313001 ought to be saved as a "PEP" type and the first of class as a dual voltage unit ...I believe York has first call on it , if they want it.

Who wouldn't want a badly built, incorrectly wired unit ?
 
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Haig paxton

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Led by whom ?

They're all pretty much shot - they're suffering from various corrosion issues, the wiring is knackered, spare parts are getting harder to obtain and they need silly amounts of maintenance that the modern railway can't provide.

New designs can do twice the mileage with half the maintenance hours, that's also the underlying reason for SWT Class 455 AC motor conversion, for Class 321 AC motor conversion and helps the costs for Pacer withdrawal.

Depot space, jacking space, they're all at a premium, if a unit can be lifted less often, lifted in half the time, and needs little more than exams when it's on depot, if repairs can be completed in half or a third of the time, keeping old stock becomes a problem, particularly if you can then run more diagrams with fewer units, so you don't even need as many man-hours to do exams.

The industry is changing, it's not about the number of trains in service, it's about the number of seats you can provide on a route now, and sometimes throwing more stock at a route isn't any sort of solution at all.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Who wouldn't want a badly built, incorrectly wired unit ?

If they are that bad then why do ScotRail run them 7 days a week, night and day? At weekends when there are surplus of 380s on depot the 314s are out working hard with a very low failure rate.
 

mbreckers

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All ScotRail EMU services to/from Edinburgh will be run by Class 385s

What about Ayr-Edinburgh/North Berwick services? They are currently run by 380's and there is no plan to replace the 380's on the Ayrshire Coast Line with 385's
 

Clansman

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These services are already getting brand new EMUs from CAF to replace the 323s. This is happening at exactly the same time as the 314s are becoming available, so there's no justification for them to have even temporary use down in Manchester.



All ScotRail EMU services to/from Edinburgh will be run by Class 385s maintained at the new Hitachi depot at Millerhill. If additional EMUs were needed for capacity relief to Brunstane and Newcraighall they would best come from the depot next door. Since so few of them would be required, it would be more cost-effective just to add a few more trains onto the new order rather than try to maintain a handful of instances of a totally obsolete design in a brand new purpose-built depot.

However, it is rather unlikely that any EMUs would be needed just for Newcraighall and Brunstane given that it's the Midlothian stations on the Borders Railway which are important. Passive provision was included in the design of the new line for a 4tph service to Gorebridge but it will be well past the 314's demise when that is needed. Given that the main constraint on capacity in the peak is the lack of extra paths, the best way to deal with that is to extend trains to be as long as possible and there is no way that the 314s can help in that regard.

Haymarket depot? Perfect match in terms of train design. Have you seen those minky ex Scotrail 158 interiors which date back to 1998? The unrefurbished 314s would go with the 158s like 2 peas in a pod.

I agree, the 314 will be long gone before a 4tph service would be required for that line. More so thinking in the short term for when 385s will be rolling off the production line that maybe having a couple of 314s knocking about here and there for capacity sake on short hop routes (ie Slateford to Newcraighall). As long as the train is reliable and well kept then age shouldn't be a problem on passenger's part. Although it's hard to justify 314s in Edinburgh when it comes to comparing with other stock. You'd be as well extend the 334s on Helensburgh/Dumbarton/Mingavie to Edinburgh duties.
 
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scotraildriver

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They are good units but showing their age now. They suffer a lot of electrical issues and really could do with a full re wire. There are a few units running gear around with traction motors isolated as well. They have been great but time to move on.
 

theblackwatch

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They are good units but showing their age now. They suffer a lot of electrical issues and really could do with a full re wire. There are a few units running gear around with traction motors isolated as well. They have been great but time to move on.

I tend to agree - these units date from the late 70s and are now not far off 40 years old. Much of the Mk.1 stock that was withdrawn from the mid-90s onwards was around that age, if not younger.
 

Carntyne

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There's no chance of them moving anywhere at all. They're being scrapped, they're done.
 

NotATrainspott

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Haymarket depot? Perfect match in terms of train design. Have you seen those minky ex Scotrail 158 interiors which date back to 1998? The unrefurbished 314s would go with the 158s like 2 peas in a pod.

Haymarket TMD isn't electrified and won't be for a while.

I agree, the 314 will be long gone before a 4tph service would be required for that line. More so thinking in the short term for when 385s will be rolling off the production line that maybe having a couple of 314s knocking about here and there for capacity sake on short hop routes (ie Slateford to Newcraighall). As long as the train is reliable and well kept then age shouldn't be a problem on passenger's part. Although it's hard to justify 314s in Edinburgh when it comes to comparing with other stock. You'd be as well extend the 334s on Helensburgh/Dumbarton/Mingavie to Edinburgh duties.

It's the 'kept reliable' which is the problem here. Old trains require increasing amounts of maintenance to keep running and maintenance is very expensive. Now that the 314s are actually at the end of their useful lives, replacing them with brand new Class 385s is economically worthwhile.
 

Tynwald

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Though this type of stock has alluminium shells, they are not as per more modern stock (welded alluminium extrusions). They have a steel underframe, with a riveted body on top. They have suffered corrosion issues.
 
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