Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

[jagardner1984]

Or 0 spares if you are running a peak service in both directions.

How very forward thinking.

 

[hexagon789]

Or 0 spares if you are running a peak service in both directions.

How very forward thinking.

Oh of course, you need 12×8-car (24 units) for 6 each way.

Oops

 

[gingertom]

Oh of course, you need 12×8-car (24 units) for 6 each way.

Oops

anyone know if the option for 10 additional units has been exercised or binned?

 

[hexagon789]

anyone know if the option for 10 additional units has been exercised or binned?

Didn't even know there was an option. Probably too late to exercise it?

 

[Mingulay]

Oh of course, you need 12×8-car (24 units) for 6 each way.

Oops

Dunblane service peak this morning and this evening was a 4 car. I assume it won't last given the informed views by some on here that they are not for SDA services. Albeit commitments were made by Scotrail about 4 car capacity. 3 cars probably is enough for now albeit standing for some Larbert and Falkirk Passengers in the morning so they are the most at risk of no seat .

New timetable does seem to deliver a shorter journey today despite being stuck behind a late running 170 to Glasgow.

High hopes this is now the service we hoped for despite the loss of a timely direct service . Fingers x d

 

[Altnabreac]

Didn't even know there was an option. Probably too late to exercise it?

Follow on order is for 10 x 3 car units. Only to be exercised in the event that Transport Scotland and Abellio mutually agree extension from 7 to 10 year Franchise. This decision is due to be made in April 2020. (My guess is both decide against it and so follow on order does not happen.)

So not too late yet and suggests that 385 orders will still be possible for the next year or two should Almond Chord progress.

 

[CEN60]

Does anyone know what car stop marker 385's stop at - Do both 3 & 6 car sets stop at the "S" marker - the last 2 mornings at UDD the 3 car 385 stops way up the platform compared to the 320 that previously formed the service?

 

[Typhoon_93]

Looks like the first 2 of the 4 class 385’s currently on holiday in Italy are returning tomorrow to Aycliffe.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R02621/2019/05/22/advanced

Believed to be 001/102.

 

[hexagon789]

Dunblane service peak this morning and this evening was a 4 car. I assume it won't last given the informed views by some on here that they are not for SDA services. Albeit commitments were made by Scotrail about 4 car capacity. 3 cars probably is enough for now albeit standing for some Larbert and Falkirk Passengers in the morning so they are the most at risk of no seat .

New timetable does seem to deliver a shorter journey today despite being stuck behind a late running 170 to Glasgow.

High hopes this is now the service we hoped for despite the loss of a timely direct service . Fingers x d

There are always going to be losses as well as gains whenever a new timetable is introduced.

Anyway, hopefully though with all the new trains in service improvements will have been made overall.

 

[hexagon789]

Follow on order is for 10 x 3 car units. Only to be exercised in the event that Transport Scotland and Abellio mutually agree extension from 7 to 10 year Franchise. This decision is due to be made in April 2020. (My guess is both decide against it and so follow on order does not happen.)

So not too late yet and suggests that 385 orders will still be possible for the next year or two should Almond Chord progress.

So they could still obtain more units, but only three-car units, they can't obtain more four-car for the Edinburgh-Glasgow shuttle.

 

[Mingulay]

There are always going to be losses as well as gains whenever a new timetable is introduced.

Anyway, hopefully though with all the new trains in service improvements will have been made overall.

Indeed, that seems to be the case . Losers and winners ,but its the lack of honesty by Scotrail that lead to the anger. Electrification was sold as we are all winners and it was not till the last minute they revealed the removal of the prime commute direct service. Scotrail openly admitted at the public meeting they are poor at communication. So no need to defend them its a hands up, they know they misled whether intentionally or not .

But we are where we are and we like the new trains , we like 4 car if we get to keep it , perhaps at some point the timetable may accommodate a direct train to arrive Waverley at a time to arrive at work for 9am start . A period of consistent service and no cancellations would now be very welcome . Kind of feel we have earned that !

 

[hexagon789]

Indeed, that seems to be the case . Losers and winners ,but its the lack of honesty by Scotrail that lead to the anger. Electrification was sold as we are all winners and it was not till the last minute they revealed the removal of the prime commute direct service. Scotrail openly admitted at the public meeting they are poor at communication. So no need to defend them its a hands up, they know they misled whether intentionally or not .

But we are where we are and we like the new trains , we like 4 car if we get to keep it , perhaps at some point the timetable may accommodate a direct train to arrive Waverley at a time to arrive at work for 9am start . A period of consistent service and no cancellations would now be very welcome . Kind of feel we have earned that !

Perhaps if the exercise the additional 3-car option they could then run these services as 6-cars? I think that might be the best outcome one could hope for of the available options.

 

[Mingulay]

Perhaps if the exercise the additional 3-car option they could then run these services as 6-cars? I think that might be the best outcome one could hope for of the available options.

If TS were thinking ahead , regardless of the franchise arrangements it would seem prudent to order the extra sets whilst the option is there as I assume its not likely they can tool up or find space in production for other deliveries to get them at some point in the future . There must surely be the need for more capacity anticipated or actual now ?

 

[gingertom]

Perhaps if the exercise the additional 3-car option they could then run these services as 6-cars? I think that might be the best outcome one could hope for of the available options.

all sorts of permutations. Running 6x 7car sets per hour would still see an increase in seats oer hour and IIRC P7 at Queen St can take a 9 car crowd buster, not that the intermediate station can. The original EGIP scheme was for 6x 6 car sets along with Greenhills grade separation and Almond chord so anything above this is a plus.

 

[Southsider]

I thought the option for an additional order was to cover for the possibility of East Kilbride, Barrhead and Kilmarnock electrification.

 

[hexagon789]

If TS were thinking ahead , regardless of the franchise arrangements it would seem prudent to order the extra sets whilst the option is there as I assume its not likely they can tool up or find space in production for other deliveries to get them at some point in the future . There must surely be the need for more capacity anticipated or actual now ?

I would love to see any government department be this forward thinking, sadly they all so often aren't.

The option is there, it makes sense to carry it through, I'm sure passengers and staff would welcome it and I'm sure that it would have support across the political spectrum as well.

With such unanimous support you wonder if they can afford not to be so "forward-thinking", the only real issue would be the cost of purchasing additional units but the long-term gain has got to be worth it surely?

 

[hexagon789]

all sorts of permutations. Running 6x 7car sets per hour would still see an increase in seats oer hour and IIRC P7 at Queen St can take a 9 car crowd buster, not that the intermediate station can. The original EGIP scheme was for 6x 6 car sets along with Greenhills grade separation and Almond chord so anything above this is a plus.

Perhaps with the follow-on being for 3-car one could simply run some 7-car as well as as many 8-car as possible, the slight decrease in capacity from 8 down to 7 being offset by the higher frequency.

 

[gingertom]

I thought the option for an additional order was to cover for the possibility of East Kilbride, Barrhead and Kilmarnock electrification.

would ten 3-car units actually be enough to cover these diagrams?

 

[hexagon789]

I thought the option for an additional order was to cover for the possibility of East Kilbride, Barrhead and Kilmarnock electrification.

Well it would've made sense at the time, but I think any future electrification for those routes would need a fresh order really.

 

[takno]

I thought the option for an additional order was to cover for the possibility of East Kilbride, Barrhead and Kilmarnock electrification.

At the end of the day Hitachi still have the factory open, the equipment and trained staff in place, and a product with a (very hard-won) safety case. As long as it comes reasonably quickly there's very little reason to suppose they'd restrict the size of a follow-on order.

 

[Highlandspring]

I thought the option for an additional order was to cover for the possibility of East Kilbride, Barrhead and Kilmarnock electrification.

would ten 3-car units actually be enough to cover these diagrams?

My understanding is that the aspiration for the East Kilbride branch is four trains per hour running as 8 car sets in the peak, 4 car off peak. Whether that would be from the existing fleet rejigged or require a new order I suppose depends on a number of other factors.

 

[supervc-10]

I'm presuming when there's an option in the contract it's that the pricing has already been agreed, in principle, for those trains. If the option is for, say, 10 units, then those 10 will be at a certain pricing, and any extra units the pricing will have to be negotiated.

 

[takno]

I'm presuming when there's an option in the contract it's that the pricing has already been agreed, in principle, for those trains. If the option is for, say, 10 units, then those 10 will be at a certain pricing, and any extra units the pricing will have to be negotiated.

Makes sense, but compared to the cost of the almond chord, grade separation at greenhill upper, and the cost of units at the option price anyway, the additional cost of a them being on a new contract probably isn't going to be that significant.

The argument would be more likely to come down to whether you would want to buy fixed formation 8 coach units to save on the increasingly pointless-looking centre cabs, whether that opened up the market to other products, and if so whether the cost of maintaining a mixed fleet was higher than any benefit.

 

[gsnedders]

I'm presuming when there's an option in the contract it's that the pricing has already been agreed, in principle, for those trains. If the option is for, say, 10 units, then those 10 will be at a certain pricing, and any extra units the pricing will have to be negotiated.

Almost certainly the case. And if they're able to build another 10 3-car units, it's almost certainly the case they're able to build another 30 4-car units (for example!) if they can agree a price for the work.

 

[Japan0913]

EMU other than Class 314 in Scotrail.

Class 318　　3car × 21 set (1986-87) max 100 mph
Class 320/3　3car × 22set (1990) max 100 mph
Class 321　　3car × 7set (1989) max 90 mph
・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・
Class 334　 3car × 40set (1999-2002) max 90 mph
・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・
Class 380/0　3car × 22set (2009–2011) max 100 mph
Class 380/1　4car × 16set (2009–2011) max 100 mph
・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・
Class 385/0　3car × 46set (2015–2019) max 100 mph (125mph)
Class 385/1　4car × 24set (2015–2019) max 100 mph (125mph)
Class 385/?　3car × 10set (2022–2023) Conditional on Abellio ScotRail franchise being extended.
(Class 385 = AT-200 http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/products/our-trains/at200-commuter)

Next time is a feeling of great reform

 

[jagardner1984]

It does make you wonder why the system of options and firm orders that seems to work pretty well in aviation couldn’t work in rail.

I.e. scotrail could have placed a statement of intent order for Class 385, for say 400-500 vehicles, then converted them into firm orders over a 5-10 year period. (i.e. Give time after introduction to order many more, or cancel the orders and move them elsewhere.)

Even bigger than individual franchises, surely DfT deciding on a far smaller number of train products, and then ordering them in far larger quantities (with different car formations but broadly the same train) would surely bring a lot of economies of scale ....

 

[RLBH]

Class 385/0　3car × 46set (2015–2019) max 100 mph (125mph)
Class 385/1　4car × 24set (2015–2019) max 100 mph (125mph)

Why do you keep banging on about 385s being 125mph units? They clearly aren't, and Hitachi's website doesn't claim that they are. They claim that the AT200 family is suitable for a speed range of 100mph to 125mph. ScotRail has specified a 100mph version, because that's what they need. If someone else wanted a 125mph version, then it could be built.

It's analogous to claiming that all Honda Accords have a 2-litre engine. Some do. But they also come with a 1.5-litre engine for people who don't need that much power.

 

[Altnabreac]

So they could still obtain more units, but only three-car units, they can't obtain more four-car for the Edinburgh-Glasgow shuttle.

As others have said the current priced order is for more 3 car units but until the assembly line closes it should be perfectly possible to get a decent price on more 4 car units if a decision were made on Almond Chord in the next couple of years.

 

[mcmad]

Have any other TOC's ordered 385/AT200's? If not then the line is as good as closed now surely.

 

[Japan0913]

Why do you keep banging on about 385s being 125mph units? They clearly aren't, and Hitachi's website doesn't claim that they are. They claim that the AT200 family is suitable for a speed range of 100mph to 125mph. ScotRail has specified a 100mph version, because that's what they need. If someone else wanted a 125mph version, then it could be built.

It's analogous to claiming that all Honda Accords have a 2-litre engine. Some do. But they also come with a 1.5-litre engine for people who don't need that much power.

Yes, it is.
Commuting routes with many intersections and curves can not be speeded up, so 100 miles per hour is enough.
However, if you enable 125 mph in Class 385 in Edinburgh-Glasgow fastest route, could it be possible to cut 40 minutes?
I think such a thing.
Yes end