Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

[47271]

First Class looks like a childrens' play room...

Yes, they haven't done any favours to the ambience of the First Class mock up by putting that display behind it.

 

[ScotTrains]

I really hope they don't put first class in the middle of the train. Having standard class passengers constantly walking through looking for a seat or going to the toilet is the last thing you want when you've paid extra to travel First class.

 

[47271]

I really hope they don't put first class in the middle of the train. Having standard class passengers constantly walking through looking for a seat or going to the toilet is the last thing you want when you've paid extra to travel First class.

Funny how there's two completely different passenger views on this. I wouldn't ever use First on Scotrail because of the lurching location of the compartments, and also because Standard on their 170s is perfectably comfortable. On TPE I'll always try to go First because of the larger smoother riding compartment (the WC seekers don't bother me) and I find Standard seats on both the 185s and 350s far too small and restricting to work in, even at tables. Each to their own.

It's kind of beside the point though. Looking at the First Class seats in the pics in this thread, I don't think I'll be bothering wherever the compartment is located in the train...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Funny how there's two completely different passenger views on this. I wouldn't ever use First on Scotrail because of the lurching location of the compartments, and also because Standard on their 170s is perfectably comfortable. On TPE I'll always try to go First because of the larger smoother riding compartment (the WC seekers don't bother me) and I find Standard seats on both the 185s and 350s far too small and restricting to work in, even at tables. Each to their own

I like it for not sitting next to someone, as I'm quite broad. Doesn't overly matter to me what the seats are provided they are in 2+1 formation, ideally with single airline seats. I will not travel First Class on a train where the seating is 2+2.

I'll report back on my views on this when I have a look at it next week.

As for Desiros, I really like the 2+2 seats in Standard, they are pretty much the perfect proportion for me provided I don't get a limited-legroom seat in the centre section. It's a shame it's a Siemens design so won't tend to be seen elsewhere (except SWT 455s for some reason - did Siemens do that job?)

 

[BestWestern]

As for Desiros, I really like the 2+2 seats in Standard, they are pretty much the perfect proportion for me provided I don't get a limited-legroom seat in the centre section. It's a shame it's a Siemens design so won't tend to be seen elsewhere (except SWT 455s for some reason - did Siemens do that job?)

Are they not the same seats found in Southern's Electrostars? If not, they're very similar - thin, hard and generally rather nasty.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Surely most if not all seats are provided by a third party specialist (Chapman/Richmond/Fainsa) rather than Siemens, Bombardier, CAF et al having a seating department...? The seats any new build or refurbished unit gets will be down to the ROSCO or the TOC, and in most cases cost (and safety standards) will be more important than comfort.

 

[fgwrich]

Surely most if not all seats are provided by a third party specialist (Chapman/Richmond/Fainsa) rather than Siemens, Bombardier, CAF et al having a seating department...? The seats any new build or refurbished unit gets will be down to the ROSCO or the TOC, and in most cases cost (and safety standards) will be more important than comfort.

Correct. I don't think any of the builders produces their own seats. The seats fitted to the Siemens built rolling stock are from Grammer - also responsible for FGW HST & ScotRail/EMT/ATW 158 fleet. Bombardiers suppliers range from Fansia to Chapman. I'm not sure who produced the god awful ironing board seat in the Southern & SouthEastern electrostars but it isn't a Grammer design.

 

[abn444]

I'm not sure who produced the god awful ironing board seat in the Southern & SouthEastern electrostars but it isn't a Grammer design.

I believe from what I have read that the "ironing board" seats on the 387s and 377/6 and /7s are by Fainsa

 

[Goldfish62]

Correct. I don't think any of the builders produces their own seats. The seats fitted to the Siemens built rolling stock are from Grammer - also responsible for FGW HST & ScotRail/EMT/ATW 158 fleet. Bombardiers suppliers range from Fansia to Chapman. I'm not sure who produced the god awful ironing board seat in the Southern & SouthEastern electrostars but it isn't a Grammer design.

Primarus, or something like that. Anyway, they went bust.

I actually find the Grammar seats in Desiro (and SWT 455 and 456) reasonably comfortable although SWT's are starting to suffer from collapsed foam innards.

 

[47271]

I called in later on yesterday. Very pleasant staff happy to chat and take feedback.

Standard is pretty much what you'd expect, with comfort and legroom very similar to a 387 in airline. The table looked a bit snug to be honest, although I was in a hurry so I didn't sit at it.

Good news on First. I found the seat firm but far better than the impression given by the photos. They also had seating plans for both the 3- and 4-car units (just on paper so you might need to ask to see them, they were left on a table when I was there) and First runs from behind the cab to the second door of one of the end coaches in the 4 car layout. So no bogie bobbing and no toilet trailing (to refer to a few posts upthread), it might be worth paying for First on Scotrail after all, the HSTs next...

 

[Clansman]

Just found out the Ironing Boards were made by Fainsa like someone already posted. The first class seats are made by Freedman who I don't think supply the seats for the Class 800/801 even though they share similarities in the design. The Fainsa seats, disappointingly to see on their site, comes under the "metro" section, whilst the Freedman seats come under the Regional/Commuter section, so technically speaking, the first class seats would've been fit for purpose as standard seats, which just sums up Scotrail's attitude to the design itself, as very poor in my opinion.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Just found out the Ironing Boards were made by Fainsa like someone already posted. The first class seats are made by Freedman who I don't think supply the seats for the Class 800/801 even though they share similarities in the design. The Fainsa seats, disappointingly to see on their site, comes under the "metro" section, whilst the Freedman seats come under the Regional/Commuter section, so technically speaking, the first class seats would've been fit for purpose as standard seats, which just sums up Scotrail's attitude to the design itself, as very poor in my opinion.

The Freedman Sophia seat is a Fainsa design.

 

[najaB]

With all the posts about the comfort of these seats for long journeys, I just want to check something: These trains are going to be used on E-G services of around 1 hour duration, and a significant percentage of the passengers aren't going to be travelling the full length of the route, right?

Or did I miss something?

 

[sng7]

With all the posts about the comfort of these seats for long journeys, I just want to check something: These trains are going to be used on E-G services of around 1 hour duration, and a significant percentage of the passengers aren't going to be travelling the full length of the route, right?

Or did I miss something?

They will Primarily be used on the Main Edinburgh to Glasgow Via Falkirk High which is about 45 mins with i would say a fair amount of passengers end to end.
They will be used on Edinburgh to Glasgow via Shotts with journey times 75-90 mins but with very significantly less through passengers normally and on certain suburban Glasgow services which will be shorter than the Glasgow to Edinburgh ones.

 

[Class 170101]

And from Edinburgh / Glasgow Queen Street to Dunblane & Alloa

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Or did I miss something?

Seating quality/comfort is a considerable downgrade from the current seating fitted to the Class 170 fleet.

It's complicated by the fact the E&G Class 170 units aren't a dedicated fleet, they can operate to Inverness, Aberdeen and all points in between, so may be more 'plush' than they need to be for E&G services, in order to be sufficiently 'plush' for longer distance services.

Then again, draft planning has Dundee to be wired by 2024, which would surely be served by an additional batch AT200 units. Do you create a sub-class or keep them in a common pool, subjecting Glasgow to Dundee passengers to those god awful Fainsa seats ?

 

[najaB]

Then again, draft planning has Dundee to be wired by 2024, which would surely be served by an additional batch AT200 units. Do you create a sub-class or keep them in a common pool, subjecting Glasgow to Dundee passengers to those god awful Fainsa seats ?

By 2024 you'd imagine that they would be due to be on their second or third interior.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

By 2024 you'd imagine that they would be due to be on their second or third interior.

I'd doubt it, most of the Class 170s aren't even on their second set of seat covers, despite the youngest being 11 years old.

 

[najaB]

I'd doubt it, most of the Class 170s aren't even on their second set of seat covers, despite the youngest being 11 years old.

As you said though, the 170's seats are over-spec as compared to the 385s. I'm sure that if they intended to keep them long-term they would probably be doing interior upgrades around about now.

 

[Clansman]

I'd doubt it, most of the Class 170s aren't even on their second set of seat covers, despite the youngest being 11 years old.

Even the oldest 170 has a better first class than any train on Scotrails fleet, including the refurbished 170. Feels like Scotrail are downgrading the quality in their service by trying to create "de-classible" first classes instead of dedicated ones. Again this may be because of the HSTs anticipated arrival soon but that isn't for another 3 years!

 

[najaB]

Again this may be because of the HSTs anticipated arrival soon but that isn't for another 4 years!

I thought the HSTs started arriving in early/mid 2018?

 

[170401]

As you said though, the 170's seats are over-spec as compared to the 385s. I'm sure that if they intended to keep them long-term they would probably be doing interior upgrades around about now.

I believe 170401 is in for a heavy refurbishment at the moment. 401-415, 70/71 all due to go through the works I believe. Refurb, new internal lighting, power sockets and relivery (Where they aren't already) into Saltire colours.

 

[route:oxford]

This is why table seats should be phased out:-

There is so little space for a normal male that they have to sit side-saddle for them both to fit!

The MSP shown in the picture is only tiny too - I'd guess from the picture below that he is around 5'2"

 

[47271]

I believe 170401 is in for a heavy refurbishment at the moment. 401-415, 70/71 all due to go through the works I believe. Refurb, new internal lighting, power sockets and relivery (Where they aren't already) into Saltire colours.

About high time. I was on one of the low numbered ones the other day, so probably in 16 year old original internal condition, which was a disgrace inside and out. It was as clean as it could be kept, but the upholstery and carpets were both shiny and threadbare. Many years overdue for attention, does anyone know why they've been allowed to get so bad?

To their credit, none of the seats have become saggy or lumpy, their original quality must be superb.

 

[Bungle965]

About high time. I was on one of the low numbered ones the other day, so probably in 16 year old original internal condition, which was a disgrace inside and out. It was as clean as it could be kept, but the upholstery and carpets were both shiny and threadbare. Many years overdue for attention, does anyone know why they've been allowed to get so bad?

To their credit, none of the seats have become saggy or lumpy, their original quality must be superb.

I think they had nor other choice as their fleet is intensively used, that they have just not had the time to get them refurbished.
Sam

 

[me123]

There is so little space for a normal male that they have to sit side-saddle for them both to fit!

To be fair, it looks like there's enough room for them to sit normally. I think it's more a silly pose for a photo-op. But that is actually pretty poor legroom for FC IMO.

 

[fgwrich]

Primarus, or something like that. Anyway, they went bust.

I actually find the Grammar seats in Desiro (and SWT 455 and 456) reasonably comfortable although SWT's are starting to suffer from collapsed foam innards.

Thanks for that, Primarus I think it was - It's the same seat as found in SouthEasterns 375/9s and LM/LO & Chilterns 172 / 165 Fleets.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7061/6866195756_4d23c103b2_b.jpg

Just found out the Ironing Boards were made by Fainsa like someone already posted. The first class seats are made by Freedman who I don't think supply the seats for the Class 800/801 even though they share similarities in the design. The Fainsa seats, disappointingly to see on their site, comes under the "metro" section, whilst the Freedman seats come under the Regional/Commuter section, so technically speaking, the first class seats would've been fit for purpose as standard seats, which just sums up Scotrail's attitude to the design itself, as very poor in my opinion.

Ah, The Freedman / Fansia go anywhere seat. As first found in SouthEasterns 376 Fleet with a slightly different top for Suburban use, then in the 'ONE' Anglia Mk3s as the rather odd and unsurprisingly uncomfortable 'Priority Seats', to the IEP as Standard Class, TSGN Desiro City First Class for Thameslink and ScotRail 385 First Class.

Incidentally, I remember Fansia as being the maker of ever uncomfortable bus seats - Some with an entire plastic base and the moquette placed on top.

 

[47271]

This is why table seats should be phased out:-

There is so little space for a normal male that they have to sit side-saddle for them both to fit!

The MSP shown in the picture is only tiny too - I'd guess from the picture below that he is around 5'2"

I like the clarity of thought, but how can I get my laptop and other stuff out and work without a table? I tried that once in a TPE airline seat in Standard and thought that deep vein thrombosis was about to set in after half an hour.

On Thursday I sat on the very seat occupied here by our tiny transport minister and it was absolutely fine, and I'm more Phil Verster sized. Granted I didn't have him opposite me at the time.

 

[deltic08]

I like the clarity of thought, but how can I get my laptop and other stuff out and work without a table? I tried that once in a TPE airline seat in Standard and thought that deep vein thrombosis was about to set in after half an hour.

On Thursday I sat on the very seat occupied here by our tiny transport minister and it was absolutely fine, and I'm more Phil Verster sized. Granted I didn't have him opposite me at the time.

The very first time I travelled in standard class on a 185, I sat in a table bay opposite two lads in their late teens and we all had to sit as the two gentlemen above to avoid knee contact. I have only used TPEx on two occasions since where one was a connecting service out of East Coast for Northallerton.

It appears that this is now the norm in First Class on 385s. Ever decreasing erosion of travel comfort. Compare this with Mark 1 FOs of the 1950s/60s.

Until train builders and operators grasp what the non captive rail users want in their travel experience then the car will continue to be the first choice of the majority as it wins hands down in many ways on price, convenience and comfort. Door to door it can win on time also.

 

[jopsuk]

What utter rot. If they sat properly they might not be knocking knees. They're sat oddly to posefoir the camera. Honestly, you lot really lack critical thinking skills and just leap on details that confirm your prejudices even when those details aren't even true.