Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

[Stopper]

They mean nothing as far as I’ve found. I’ve seen 365s and 380s and 170s show up when the timing load says 158. I’ve even had 170s a lot of the time when it says Class 385 EMU. It’s been saying Class 385 EMU long before they were even deployed on the line.

 

[92002]

They mean nothing as far as I’ve found. I’ve seen 365s and 380s and 170s show up when the timing load says 158. I’ve even had 170s a lot of the time when it says Class 385 EMU. It’s been saying Class 385 EMU long before they were even deployed on the line.

A quick check this afternoon confirms my earlier predictions.
Xx15 2 x 385s
xx30 2x 365s
xx45 1 x 365s
xx00 2 x 380s on the odd hours from Glasgow. On the even hours xx15 2x 365s.

 

[Mingulay]

As we get tantalisingly close to the end game in the electrification project. I would be interested to know if my morning DUNBLANE EDINBURGH commute will deliver the reduced journey time with the higher average speeds and fewer stops on paper it should. But in peak will all the gains be lost with the near constant congestion in Waverley and the slow running from Linlithgow and stops awaiting a platform to be free? Do the platform extensions just allow longer trains not more slots into the station ?

 

[Altnabreac]

As we get tantalisingly close to the end game in the electrification project. I would be interested to know if my morning DUNBLANE EDINBURGH commute will deliver the reduced journey time with the higher average speeds and fewer stops on paper it should. But in peak will all the gains be lost with the near constant congestion in Waverley and the slow running from Linlithgow and stops awaiting a platform to be free? Do the platform extensions just allow longer trains not more slots into the station ?

There are additional services in the peak so any disturbance to the timetable leads to knock on delays and takes longer to recover from than during the off peak.

In theory having the Falkirk, Stirling and Shorts services electrified should improve performance in the western throat at Waverley as the electrified services accelerate quicker and there will be more consistent train performance with virtually all the services that run through platforms 3 and 4 at Haymarket being electrified once Shotts is complete in May. The less speed and acceleration difference there is between different train types the less likely there are to be delays and congestion.

 

[92002]

As we get tantalisingly close to the end game in the electrification project. I would be interested to know if my morning DUNBLANE EDINBURGH commute will deliver the reduced journey time with the higher average speeds and fewer stops on paper it should. But in peak will all the gains be lost with the near constant congestion in Waverley and the slow running from Linlithgow and stops awaiting a platform to be free? Do the platform extensions just allow longer trains not more slots into the station ?

From December the Dunblane and Alloa services should be electric. The Dunblane trains should be quicker, by cutting out stops picked up by the new all stations Glasgow to Edinburgh via Cumberland service. The platform extensions only allow for longer trains. What you need to reduce congestion with the now many extra trains is a resignalling scheme.

So yes your Dunblane journey should be a shorter one.

 

[Stopper]

I’m still unconvinced that Dunblane services and the new Cumbernauld trains won’t be held regularly at Newbridge Junction. There’s already trains held there regularly every morning (and evening) with 10tph through it, let alone 12tph which it will soon take.

Will the increased acceleration of the 385s really solve all of this?

 

[92002]

I’m still unconvinced that Dunblane services and the new Cumbernauld trains won’t be held regularly at Newbridge Junction. There’s already trains held there regularly every morning (and evening) with 10tph through it, let alone 12tph which it will soon take.

Will the increased acceleration of the 385s really solve all of this?

All depends on how much cash you want to throw at the problem. There could be a flying junction at Newbridge, with additional tracks towards Edinburgh. Not cheap but a solution. If the original EGIP plans were developed for the flying junction at Winchburgh and the new chord line to the North Lines at Dalmeny was built. An even bigger bill for that one.

Resignalling of the existing line would also help.

What you have to remember is at one time there was only 2 trains an hour from Glasgow to Edinburgh. Shortly there will be six. Add another 4 trains an hour from Bathgate that the line at Newbridge was never designed for.as well as the Dunblane and Stirling trains.

In short the line is running a capacity. Electric trains will help, but not cure the problem.

 

[Stopper]

I’m surprised that ScotRail are sending another 2tph through Newbridge Junction without the Almond Chord being built. Almost all of the services through there are electric just now but there are still trains regularly held.

Dunblane/Stirling passengers are getting a faster service to Edinburgh by around 10 minutes due to the Cumbernauld services picking up the Linlithgow and Polmont calls. However it’s ironic that this exact new service will congest Newbridge even more, making it even more likely that a Dunblane service will be held there than they currently are.

 

[InOban]

Both delivery paths for this week have disappeared from RTT.

 

[superkev]

170'(s) perhaps. Haymarket Neville hill
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O25818/2018/08/01/advanced

 

[route101]

Sampled my first 385 today on the 1115 from Glasgow to Edinburgh , 7 car set so i always make my way to the front set . First impressions are bright and airy and nice to see carpet . On the negative there was not as many airline seating as hoped and hardly any with decent window alignment . I know tables are popular but the Edinburgh to Glasgow is a major commuting route so having more airline s not a problem ! Seats not as uncomfortable, (even slots for seat reservation labels) . as feared and ride smooth . Hitachi staff were walking up and down the train . Lastly a first on scotrail is a member catering staff making an announcement .

 

[clc]

How does the ride and noise level compare with a class 380?

 

[route101]

How does the ride and noise level compare with a class 380?

Similar i thought .

 

[170401]

How does the ride and noise level compare with a class 380?

Substantially improved ride quality. I find the Siemens product (380 and 444) very bouncy over about 70mph with a lot of lateral sway. This wasn't apparent at all on the 385.

The 380 is a decent product but the 385 is far superior and I expect it will be very well received once the issues getting them into service are forgotten.

 

[Mingulay]

All depends on how much cash you want to throw at the problem. There could be a flying junction at Newbridge, with additional tracks towards Edinburgh. Not cheap but a solution. If the original EGIP plans were developed for the flying junction at Winchburgh and the new chord line to the North Lines at Dalmeny was built. An even bigger bill for that one.

Resignalling of the existing line would also help.

What you have to remember is at one time there was only 2 trains an hour from Glasgow to Edinburgh. Shortly there will be six. Add another 4 trains an hour from Bathgate that the line at Newbridge was never designed for.as well as the Dunblane and Stirling trains.

In short the line is running a capacity. Electric trains will help, but not cure the problem.

Thanks to all for responding. I sense that one of the main aims and boasts of the project , faster journeys will be watered down in the reality of congestion. But one to judge when we experience the whole project complete. Be good to have new trains tho. I hope the interior finishes allow for better cleaning. It will be a shame if the slovenly habits of the Scottish traveling public and poor cleaning by Scot rail soon spoil the joyous experience of " the new car feel good factor" . Scotrail have overcome some tough hurdles in a complex project. One would think clean trains is a far easier nut to crack. If only Scotrail had a dyson Hoover to vacuum the dog hair crumbs and debris in the crevice between seat base and back. If only they hoover under the seats not round them. If only they wipe cofffee stained bulkheads If only they embarrassed passengers into not leaving their discarded food on tables a mere arms stretch from a bin.

 

[clc]

Substantially improved ride quality. I find the Siemens product (380 and 444) very bouncy over about 70mph with a lot of lateral sway. This wasn't apparent at all on the 385.

The 380 is a decent product but the 385 is far superior and I expect it will be very well received once the issues getting them into service are forgotten.

That’s good to hear, I’ve only been on the 380 a handful of times but I’ve noticed the high speed ride isn’t the best. I was on one on Saturday and an elderly passenger remarked to his son that the ride quality wasn’t as good as the diesel he’d been on earlier, presumably a class 170.

 

[youngac]

All of today’s E-G via Falkirk services are being run by EMUs according to ScotRail on Twitter. Have another pair of 385s entered service or are more 380s/365s in service?

 

[Highlandspring]

Units out on the E&G today are:
380107
365509/525
365519/529
380017/115
385003/104
365533/537
365513/521
380008/104

 

[route101]

Thanks to all for responding. I sense that one of the main aims and boasts of the project , faster journeys will be watered down in the reality of congestion. But one to judge when we experience the whole project complete. Be good to have new trains tho. I hope the interior finishes allow for better cleaning. It will be a shame if the slovenly habits of the Scottish traveling public and poor cleaning by Scot rail soon spoil the joyous experience of " the new car feel good factor" . Scotrail have overcome some tough hurdles in a complex project. One would think clean trains is a far easier nut to crack. If only Scotrail had a dyson Hoover to vacuum the dog hair crumbs and debris in the crevice between seat base and back. If only they hoover under the seats not round them. If only they wipe cofffee stained bulkheads If only they embarrassed passengers into not leaving their discarded food on tables a mere arms stretch from a bin.

I think Scotrail now have roving cleaners , was on a Larkhall train at Newton and 2 came on to clean and wipe surfaces .

 

[InOban]

They will need those on the E-G because each set spends only 8 min or so at either end. Once all the trains are in service, they will be able to step them back to give time for a proper seeing to.

 

[Stopper]

It can’t be long before every E-G service is a double EMU which is very good news.

The 385s don’t have nearly as comfy seats as 170s but neither do the 365s or 380s. I’d say the 385s I’ve been on have been comfier/smoother than 380s and far better than 365s.

 

[route101]

It can’t be long before every E-G service is a double EMU which is very good news.

The 385s don’t have nearly as comfy seats as 170s but neither do the 365s or 380s. I’d say the 385s I’ve been on have been comfier/smoother than 380s and far better than 365s.

Yeah , you notice the capacity increase when you go to the front of a 7 or 8 car set .

 

[Bikeman78]

From December the Dunblane and Alloa services should be electric. The Dunblane trains should be quicker, by cutting out stops picked up by the new all stations Glasgow to Edinburgh via Cumberland service. The platform extensions only allow for longer trains. What you need to reduce congestion with the now many extra trains is a resignalling scheme.

So yes your Dunblane journey should be a shorter one.

Am I right in thinking that Cowlairs to Anniesland will not be electrified? Seems strange to leave out such a short stretch of line. Almost everything will be 385s or HSTs but there will still be a half hourly 156/158/170 crawling up the hill.

 

[Altnabreac]

Am I right in thinking that Cowlairs to Anniesland will not be electrified? Seems strange to leave out such a short stretch of line. Almost everything will be 385s or HSTs but there will still be a half hourly 156/158/170 crawling up the hill.

There is no agreed funding yet to electrify the Maryhill line but it seems unlikely it would survive as a diesel island forever.

Reasons to do it:

• Maryhill units are currently interworked with other Queen St diagrams so may be increased platform occupancy and decreased resource utilisation by having to diagram it separately.
• Timetabling a slow diesel up the hill will get in the way of 385s and HSTs shooting up the incline
• Relatively short distance to electrify and only a small number of isolated diesel units will be harder to maintain.

Reasons not to do it:

• Maryhill units are much the quietest in all of Strathclyde so a bit of a waste of 3 car EMUs compared to other routes
• Although its a short length there are a few tricky structures (including Aqueducts on the Scheduled Monument Canal) that may be quite tricky and expensive to wire
• There will still be 170s / 158s serving the new Perth / Dundee / Arbroath terminators running into Queen St that will have similar performance issues on the incline and that can potentially be interworked with the Maryhill units
• Even once those are gone the WHL will remain diesel so there will still need to be a diesel depot somewhere in Glasgow.

To me that suggests that you would put it in the priority list behind the Dunblane - Perth / Dundee electrification but it would happen not long after that as part of the final removal of non HST / WHL diesels from Cowlairs Incline with performance and capacity for the intercity routes as the main justifications for the business case rather than a requirement for the line itself to need longer or faster trains.

Some sort of bi-mode being used on the WHL would further improve the business case for wiring it as well.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Maryhill also provides two useful electrified diversionary routes. It means a useful service can be maintained on a big chunk of the North Clyde network during maintenance or enhancements between Hyndland and Partick, and electrified EGIP services would be able to run around the loop as they did during the summer of 2016. The former would be reasonably easy to sort out with sufficient notice, as you just need to train up North Clyde drivers on Westerton-Queen Street and take over the current Anniesland path. The other redirection isn't so likely to happen in the short term as Queen Street to Cowlairs was pretty comprehensively refurbished during the closure, but there may be occasions when it's worthwhile.

 

[InOban]

A delivery path for Friday has reappeared on RTT. (There were two this week, but both disappeared a few days ago)

 

[route101]

Maryhill also provides two useful electrified diversionary routes. It means a useful service can be maintained on a big chunk of the North Clyde network during maintenance or enhancements between Hyndland and Partick, and electrified EGIP services would be able to run around the loop as they did during the summer of 2016. The former would be reasonably easy to sort out with sufficient notice, as you just need to train up North Clyde drivers on Westerton-Queen Street and take over the current Anniesland path. The other redirection isn't so likely to happen in the short term as Queen Street to Cowlairs was pretty comprehensively refurbished during the closure, but there may be occasions when it's worthwhile.

Would there be enough capacity at Queen St high level for the North Clyde services ?

Yeah , the Maryhill trains are usually quiet , not been on one in the peaks though.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Would there be enough capacity at Queen St high level for the North Clyde services ?

Yeah , the Maryhill trains are usually quiet , not been on one in the peaks though.

You'd merge the Maryhill and North Clyde line trains together. It'd be the normal path from Queen Street to Maryhill, then you'd stay on to Westerton rather than heading down to Anniesland. After that you go to whatever branch needs the service the most - I'd imagine stopping Helensburgh to Queen Street and Balloch to Milngavie (has happened before during engineering works) services would cover the network fine during any blockage of Hyndland-Partick.

Obviously you'd miss out Kelvindale, but that's a small price to pay for a network that would still be able to get people into the city centre. So long as there's sufficient capacity for a 6x20m EMU every half hour (Anniesland trains are normally only 2 carriages) there shouldn't be any problems.

 

[SC318250]

With the press release saying 7 or 8 coach trains on Edi to Gla next week, then I suspect it will be

4 x 8 car 365
2 x 7 car 380
2 x 7 car 385

Or

4 x 8 car 365
3 x 7 car 380
1 x 7 car 385

Think there is enough 318/320 availability to get another 3 car 380 from Inverclyde to add to the 4 car 380 running about on E&G.

 

[InOban]

You'd merge the Maryhill and North Clyde line trains together. It'd be the normal path from Queen Street to Maryhill, then you'd stay on to Westerton rather than heading down to Anniesland. After that you go to whatever branch needs the service the most - I'd imagine stopping Helensburgh to Queen Street and Balloch to Milngavie (has happened before during engineering works) services would cover the network fine during any blockage of Hyndland-Partick.

Obviously you'd miss out Kelvindale, but that's a small price to pay for a network that would still be able to get people into the city centre. So long as there's sufficient capacity for a 6x20m EMU every half hour (Anniesland trains are normally only 2 carriages) there shouldn't be any problems.

Except for capacity through the flat junction at Cowlairs and the single track, wrong line working through Westerton!