Scotrail collects 2nd improvement notice

[DuncanS]

On the plus side, well for me, I had confirmation of reimbursement for 3 delay repays from the past week within a couple of hours of submission -
1x Stirling to Edinburgh
1x Edinburgh to Stirling
1x Queen Street to Falkirk

So at least one part of Scotrail is functioning well! However the fact that twice we were allowed onto the platform/train before the train was cancelled after departure time shows that things aren't right everywhere.

 

[Esker-pades]

Whilst I expect TS and our dim witted politicians to be hoodwinked. I had rather assumed our press would have more investigative journalistic prowess not to let Hynes off so lightly so unchallenged


Questions to answer

1 why are your drivers leaving? Poor pay poor conditions ?
2 how many new drivers net of leaving staff?
3 why have scotrail Abellio been so unprepared for your new trains so long anticipated?

The trains were delievered very late. It's quite hard to fully train staff on trains which don't exist.

4 How long till you will have zero cancellations for reasons of no staff available? Date please?

No TOC will ever have 0 cancellations for staffing reasons. No TOC anywhere will ever have that level simply because there will always be times where people call in sick and there isn't someone else available to cover (this is quite a big problem in the very small rural depots). A more reasonable question would be when ScotRail have enough trained staff to cover all services.

5 why have we endured so many signal failures?

Is there evidence that Scotland has a higher proportion of signal failures compared to the rest of the country? Is there evidence that this is down to poor infrastructure management?

6 when will the refurbished HST fleet be delivered?

I don't think anyone actually knows when the HST fleet will be delivered in full. It is certainly not a question for ScotRail. This is not their fault.

In the absence of an effective press and a government with a clear sense of duty. I pose these questions to Scotrail and Mr Hynes in particular ?

I'm not sure. Do you?

 

[Mingulay]

I can offer an answer for question 1, but not the others. Qualified driver's are leaving ScotRail to go to Virgin WC, LNER, TPE and X-Country plus various FOCs because of the lower pay and intense workloads/job content within ScotRail - more so in the Strathclyde area. DOO drivers in some depots have over 150 stops a day with ScotRail for approx. 48k basic a year and have moved to TOCs with maybe 10 stops a day for approx. 65k+ basic. One depot alone loses 20+ drivers in May to Trans Pennine.

Thank you

So it seems the answer to Q1 is that Abellio are not meeting the industry norm in terms of pay and conditions and putting profit before the passenger by failing to staff the network to ensure minimum passenger disruption. Verdict in the court of public option ? Guilty as charged?

 

[Mingulay]

The trains were delievered very late. It's quite hard to fully train staff on trains which don't exist.


No TOC will ever have 0 cancellations for staffing reasons. No TOC anywhere will ever have that level simply because there will always be times where people call in sick and there isn't someone else available to cover (this is quite a big problem in the very small rural depots). A more reasonable question would be when ScotRail have enough trained staff to cover all services.


Is there evidence that Scotland has a higher proportion of signal failures compared to the rest of the country? Is there evidence that this is down to poor infrastructure management?


I don't think anyone actually knows when the HST fleet will be delivered in full. It is certainly not a question for ScotRail. This is not their fault.


I'm not sure. Do you?

Thanks

If you can’t introduce any new fleet of trains without cancelling services the industry needs to take a long hard look at itself. What other mode of transport does that. ?

Ok. No cancellations bar the qualification you make. A better benchmark. Thank you

I don’t know. But we should expect signal problems not to be routine!

Hst delay. Matters not who’s fault. They sold the project they need to explain what the timescales are. It’s the duty to inform us as customers. They can argue with Wabtec. We are the customer!

You say your not sure . Granted. You ask me am I sure ? I have no idea. But you miss the blindingly obvious. It’s not for you or I to know but Alex Hynes ! He needs to be saying it’s hisvproject his contract his responsibility to inform and deliver !

 

[68000]

Thank you

So it seems the answer to Q1 is that Abellio are not meeting the industry norm in terms of pay and conditions and putting profit before the passenger by failing to staff the network to ensure minimum passenger disruption. Verdict in the court of public option ? Guilty as charged?

Pretty sure if Abellio were offering a figure above what the other TOCs pay, you would be the first to denounce this as fleecing the farepayer

 

[Esker-pades]

Thanks

If you can’t introduce any new fleet of trains without cancelling services the industry needs to take a long hard look at itself. What other mode of transport does that. ?

That isn't what I said. If trains are delivered late and are required to enter service at a certain time, that reduces the amount of time available to train staff. If the replacement rolling stock is taken away before the replacement is available, then there will be cancellations.

Ok. No cancellations bar the qualification you make. A better benchmark. Thank you

I don’t know. But we should expect signal problems not to be routine!

Hst delay. Matters not who’s fault. They sold the project they need to explain what the timescales are. It’s the duty to inform us as customers. They can argue with Wabtec. We are the customer!

I agree to an extent. While the passenger is the customer, it's not very effective asking Alex Hynes about a problem caused by another entity (Wabtec) altogether.

You say your not sure . Granted. You ask me am I sure ? I have no idea. But you miss the blindingly obvious. It’s not for you or I to know but Alex Hynes ! He needs to be saying it’s hisvproject his contract his responsibility to inform and deliver !

I was making a comment about the question mark at the very end of your original post. It confused me.

Pretty sure if Abellio were offering a figure above what the other TOCs pay, you would be the first to denounce this as fleecing the farepayer

They don't have to offer above. They could offer the same.

 

[68000]

On poaching drivers - there are TOCs out there who will not train their own drivers but who will always recruit qualified drivers thus allowing them to pay more. It is a zero sum game unless someone takes the initiative and recruit non-qualifed drivers and train them up. Unfortunately, it takes time to train drivers

 

[InOban]

Surely if Scotrail have invested a lot of money in training up new drivers, they could require them, or their new TOC, to repay the investment if they leave within, say, the first five years?

 

[snookertam]

Surely if Scotrail have invested a lot of money in training up new drivers, they could require them, or their new TOC, to repay the investment if they leave within, say, the first five years?

Whilst I'm not an expert, I can't see that being allowed under employment law. And even at that, what union would ever sign up to such a deal?

 

[leightonbd]

Whilst I'm not an expert, I can't see that being allowed under employment law. And even at that, what union would ever sign up to such a deal?

Accountancy trainees would be an example of what is legally permissible. Employer pays for the training (which, these days, may include a degree) and the trainee has to do a period of service.

Not trying to equate apples and pears, but it can be done

 

[InOban]

Didn't airlines used to sponsor pilot training?

 

[Chrism20]

Whilst I'm not an expert, I can't see that being allowed under employment law. And even at that, what union would ever sign up to such a deal?

It’s definitely allowed. When I was a Manager in a casino you had to pay for your licenses if you left within two years of getting them. They still do it yet as far as I know.

As you say the unions would be the stumbling block here.

 

[InOban]

When you are accepted for training, surely you won't have yet joined a union?

 

[snookertam]

When you are accepted for training, surely you won't have yet joined a union?

Union recruitment happens fairly early on, however any change to the terms and conditions of new starts would have to be consulted on, and undoubtedly the unions would object as it would be a reduction in the drivers' terms and conditions. Whilst current drivers wouldn't be affected, they may take action to protect the rights of those coming into the grade behind them. It's not the fault of drivers that ScotRail can't convince them to stay in post, so why should they be punished for it?

 

[alangla]

Why should some TOCs be able to avoid paying for training by poaching?
In the airlines, if you get sponsorship, usually the deal is that you take out a loan to cover your training and the airline pays it back at a set amount each year, IF you pass a line check, which is the equivalent of being passed out on your first class of loco/unit. If you leave before they’ve paid it off, then the rest of the repayments are your problem.
Seems generally fair and allows for other employers to offer a golden hello that can include paying the loan. Either way, the sponsoring airline doesn’t pay the whole cost of your training until you’ve got a decent bit of service. Given that train driver training costs aren’t that far off pilot training, I don’t see how the current situation can possibly be sustainable.

 

[Carlisle]

It's not the fault of drivers that ScotRail can't convince them to stay in post, so why should they be punished for it?

Not entirely correct given a few years previously drivers chose to refuse control of doors on all newly electrified routes or compatible stock and thus forgo any improved pay/ T&Cs that would almost certainly have gone with it .

 

[Class83]

Why should some TOCs be able to avoid paying for training by poaching?
In the airlines, if you get sponsorship, usually the deal is that you take out a loan to cover your training and the airline pays it back at a set amount each year, IF you pass a line check, which is the equivalent of being passed out on your first class of loco/unit. If you leave before they’ve paid it off, then the rest of the repayments are your problem.
Seems generally fair and allows for other employers to offer a golden hello that can include paying the loan. Either way, the sponsoring airline doesn’t pay the whole cost of your training until you’ve got a decent bit of service. Given that train driver training costs aren’t that far off pilot training, I don’t see how the current situation can possibly be sustainable.

If the problem is as described, other TOCs offering higher salaries to qualified drivers, but not operating a basic training course, 'poaching' drivers from Scotrail this seems a sensible response. With a £48k salary (and no loan repayments provided you stay for 5-10 years) Scotrail are unlikely to want for applicants as it compares very well with most other jobs in Scotland.

 

[Class83]

Have Scotrail had to shift 170s (and the associated drivers/conductors) away from the Borders/Fife to cover for missing HSTs as these routes seem to be particularly badly affected at the moment. Otherwise, given that there has been no new stock introduced on these routes, the shortage of staff for training is a bit odd. I'm yet to work out how a short formation can be caused by a staff shortage, if anything surely they should be able to run fewer, longer services if there are not enough staff, actually accepting that and putting out a reliable reduced emergency timetable might be an idea.

 

[alangla]

I'm yet to work out how a short formation can be caused by a staff shortage, if anything surely they should be able to run fewer, longer services if there are not enough staff, actually accepting that and putting out a reliable reduced emergency timetable might be an idea.

As I understand it, it’s something like this - HST (I.e. 4 car train) is booked. Crew aren’t trained on it. Turbostar (3 car train) is robbed from another diagram to cover as crew are trained on it. Turbostar’s original job now needs covered, so 158 is sent out. 2 short forms, both due to crew shortage. Possibly a 3rd if the 158 was booked to run as a pair but its partner now has to run alone.

 

[scotraildriver]

Alot of the jobs moving trains to and from Haymarket depot for fuelling/servicing are uncovered so drivers can be used on passenger trains. Unfortunately this means some units are stuck at the depot causing short forms.(and lots of trains lying at the depot to annoy passing customers)

 

[Carlisle]

Alot of the jobs moving trains to and from Haymarket depot for fuelling/servicing are uncovered so drivers can be used on passenger trains. Unfortunately this means some units are stuck at the depot causing short forms.(and lots of trains lying at the depot to annoy passing customers)

I think it’ would be fairly widely accepted that a full time and fully qualified driver that’s required over a years training isn’t strictly necessary to shuttle ECS movements the mile or so between Haymarket and Waverley, even if present practices and agreements don’t allow for any alternatives.

 

[scotraildriver]

I think it’ would be fairly widely accepted that a full time and fully qualified driver that’s required over a years training isn’t strictly necessary to shuttle ECS movements the mile or so between Haymarket and Waverley, even if present practices and agreements don’t allow for any alternatives.

Considering it involves driving through one of the most complex signalling areas in Scotland I'm interested to know who you think would be acceptable then? You can't drive on the main line unless you are a mainline driver, for obvious reasons. Whether or not there are passengers on board is irrelevant.

 

[Carlisle]

Considering it involves driving through one of the most complex signalling areas in Scotland I'm interested to know who you think would be acceptable then? You can't drive on the main line unless you are a mainline driver, for obvious reasons. Whether or not there are passengers on board is irrelevant.

Over the years various locations have seen proposals (some even dating back to BR) to transfer this type of work to either semi retired, part time or medically restricted drivers and more recently engineering staff currently qualified to drive in depots, or possibly a new grade altogether, I’m not privileged as to why these options weren’t ultimately pursued nor am I attempting to blame any particular side for it

 

[Class83]

As I understand it, it’s something like this - HST (I.e. 4 car train) is booked. Crew aren’t trained on it. Turbostar (3 car train) is robbed from another diagram to cover as crew are trained on it. Turbostar’s original job now needs covered, so 158 is sent out. 2 short forms, both due to crew shortage. Possibly a 3rd if the 158 was booked to run as a pair but its partner now has to run alone.

Alot of the jobs moving trains to and from Haymarket depot for fuelling/servicing are uncovered so drivers can be used on passenger trains. Unfortunately this means some units are stuck at the depot causing short forms.(and lots of trains lying at the depot to annoy passing customers)

Ahh, both seem fairly sensible reasons. Though I'd go back to my suggestion that unless training is organised on the day, if say 10% of drivers/conductors are being trained on any given day over the next month then cancel 10% of diagrams in advance for the whole month and publicise it. Possibly with replacement buses and trains lengthened with carriages from those cancelled to mitigate overcrowding.

 

[DuncanS]

It is of course the 2nd weekend of free travel anywhere on Scotrail for those with season tickets on certain routes. Being on holiday 2 weeks ago I didn't have a ticket for last weekend but did for this.

I went a staggering 12 minutes down the line to Cumbernauld - conductor had to take a piece of paper out of his pocket to write it down as he said Scotrail are tracking how many journeys are being taken.

Anyone else made better use of it - I'm thinking of a wee run to Dundee next Sunday.

 

[cb a1]

It is of course the 2nd weekend of free travel anywhere on Scotrail for those with season tickets on certain routes. Being on holiday 2 weeks ago I didn't have a ticket for last weekend but did for this.

I went a staggering 12 minutes down the line to Cumbernauld - conductor had to take a piece of paper out of his pocket to write it down as he said Scotrail are tracking how many journeys are being taken.

Anyone else made better use of it - I'm thinking of a wee run to Dundee next Sunday.

there's a thread over in fares and ticketing discussing the offer.
Last week I did the Borders Railway. This week was West Highland Line.
No record that I could see being made of numbers though.

 

[Stopper]

I went a staggering 12 minutes down the line to Cumbernauld - conductor had to take a piece of paper out of his pocket to write it down as he said Scotrail are tracking how many journeys are being taken.

Good to see ScotRail are acknowledging the low numbers on that service. I’ve never seen a service so empty all of the time. Having said that, given the attitude (or ignorance) of ScotRail/TS towards customers at the downgraded station complaining about that service, I am surprised they have even sent a conductor to do that.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Thing is, unless transport Scotland stump up some money I can't see anyone who would run the franchise after albellio being able to do a better job...

 

[380101]

Thing is, unless transport Scotland stump up some money I can't see anyone who would run the franchise after albellio being able to do a better job...

Exactly. For all the political outcry from opposition parties over the current ScotRail franchise and how it should be "nationalised" etc there is probably no company out there that would be running it any better at the moment. Regardless of what new rolling stock was specified there would still be issues with the introduction and a shortage of drivers.

 

[alangla]

Watch out for Calmac being pushed forward as government stooges in that case...