ScotRail December 2018 Timetable change

Discussion in 'Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables' started by WGWarburton, 4 Oct 2018.

  1. WGWarburton

    WGWarburton New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Joined:
    2 Oct 2018
    Hi,
    New to this, so I apologise in advance if I've not seen something fundamental!

    Looking at the new timetable from December, it seems that the commuter services from Dunblane are significantly poorer than they are currently: the "express" service leaving 0723 and taking 52 minutes to Haymarket has gone. The Perth service (currently 0708 and 1h04) is moved earlier (0658, 58m) and the connection to the Alloa service (now taking 1h07) is now the only option that arrives in the 0800 to 0845 window that gives commuters time to get from station to office before 9am... Currently, there are three services that arrive at 0812, 0816 and 0840... none of which are particularly lightly used!

    Apart from the inconvenience of the new timings, this is surely a recipe for overloading (though I appreciate the new services don't call at PMT/LIN, which mitigates that to an extent).

    What am I missing?

    Cheers,
    W.
     
  2. Registered users do not see these banners - join or log in today!

    Rail Forums

     
  3. Starmill

    Starmill Veteran Member

    Messages:
    11,500
    Joined:
    18 May 2012
    Location:
    Manchester
    It seems likely, although not certain, that some of these services will be worked by class 365s.

    Of course, it's also likely that the timetable upload is not yet complete.
     
  4. Stopper

    Stopper Member

    Messages:
    436
    Joined:
    11 Nov 2017
    It's a terrible situation and one of many things that are terribly wrong about the new timetable change. 1 Edinburgh train within an hour is absolutely not acceptable for Dunblane at peak time.

    As for loadings, in the long run that one service will almost certainly be a 6-coach 385, and that will probably suffice given that Linlithgow and Polmont (2nd and 4th/5th busiest stations on the line) will be removed, which is a large amount of passengers.
     
  5. kbrockie

    kbrockie Member

    Messages:
    6
    Joined:
    4 Feb 2015
    Does anyone have a link to the new timetable?

    Ta!
     
  6. Starmill

    Starmill Veteran Member

    Messages:
    11,500
    Joined:
    18 May 2012
    Location:
    Manchester
    The PDFs will usually appear about a month or so in advance of the changes.
     
  7. WGWarburton

    WGWarburton New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Joined:
    2 Oct 2018
    Not seen a timetable as such. The information is in the online National Rail journeyplanner and you can extract portions into PDFs.
    Did that earlier for the return journey, which is almost as bad- no express service and a change required at Stirling to avoid a long wait on the only service that leaves after 5pm and arrives in time to get home by 7...

    It's as if the Planners have decided that the timetable really ought to stop at Stirling, with BoA & Dunblane just being a fiddly complication... perhaps the thinking is that if they degrade the service slowly then enough passengers will switch to Stirling that they can reverse the trains there and let any diehards fall back on Perthbound services...

    Colour me disgruntled.

    Cheers,
    W.
     
  8. Starmill

    Starmill Veteran Member

    Messages:
    11,500
    Joined:
    18 May 2012
    Location:
    Manchester
    There wouldn't be much point in electrification that's going up between Stirling and Dunblane if that were the case would there
     
  9. Mingulay

    Mingulay Member

    Messages:
    232
    Joined:
    5 Mar 2018
    I sense you are right. Dunblane and BofA have been downgraded to facilitate the headline grabbing 5 mins saved in theory on Glasgow Edinburgh services. And to fit Cumbernauld in as well. But all the cons were hidden from view in the Scotlands best ever railway hype. No mention of better services for some worse for others. No honesty in the sales hype of the project delayed and fraught as it is.

    I have written to local political representatives. No response. Scotrail, No response. It seems no one much cares about the poor timetable for services to and from Dunblane. , bofA and it seems polmont and Linlithgow. . So we await the reaction when reality hits in December. I hope there is a collective push back on this and minds are changed. I'm back with car and tram last week as no service. Not great but it's my plan b now given I have just one train to get in the morning not 3
     
  10. Stopper

    Stopper Member

    Messages:
    436
    Joined:
    11 Nov 2017
    Myself and two others I know have complained to ScotRail, as well as several people on the Linlithgow Facebook page. However, I doubt anything will change, and it’ll be car for me also.
     
  11. Mingulay

    Mingulay Member

    Messages:
    232
    Joined:
    5 Mar 2018
    Don’t give up. Encourage others to complain. Lean on your politicians. Persistent irritant to transport Scotland. Lobby scotrail. Insist on meeting senior management. Don’t let them get away with it. Right is on our side.
     
  12. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

    Messages:
    14,880
    Joined:
    16 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Sheffield
    Really?

    The overall frequency from Dunblane/ Stirling to Edinburgh is staying as it is - the only differences are...

    • Brand new EMUs
    • Faster journeys (by omitting stops at Polmont/ Linlithgow)
    • Double the frequency from Falkirk Grahamston to Edinburgh
    • Removal of the two services per day that ran non-stop through Falkirk (and were within just a few minutes of other Stirling - Edinburgh services)

    Some services are a little earlier or later so that you can cherry pick periods to show a slight increase/decrease in services but it generally means faster services from Dunblane/ Stirling into Edinburgh and fewer intermediate passengers fighting for your seats (given that Linlithgow/ Polmont passengers will be on a different train and half the Grahamston passengers too).

    Much too late to try to change the timetable now (given the problems in England in May with tinkering with the timetables).
     
  13. Mingulay

    Mingulay Member

    Messages:
    232
    Joined:
    5 Mar 2018
    For going to work for 9. Options now reduced. Some journey times are a min or two quicker. Some no different . Return journey now leaves 8 mins earlier and arrives 15 mins later than current train. Due to 13 min change at Stirling assuming connecting ABERDEEN service is on time. Unlikely !

    By any measure a poorer service. Where was this sold to us in the more capacity faster journeys for all ?? Clearly many are worse off. So keep complaining all those who don’t feel they are better served .

    New train. No issue. We need new electric trains even if they appear to be not well regarded by those that have been on them. I suspect the morning service will be very busy as it’s the only sensible one to get to arrive at work not too early or too late.

    Losing direct services is by any measure a poorer service.

    So yes. I do feel right is on our side as the message of the last few years from scotrail promised better not worse.
     
  14. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,682
    Joined:
    2 Sep 2016
    Location:
    Weegieland
    I consider the changes to be an improvement personally.
     
  15. Stopper

    Stopper Member

    Messages:
    436
    Joined:
    11 Nov 2017
    I don’t think “cherry-picking periods with a decrease” is that bad considering those decreases come in peak times for BofA and Dunblane passengers. They have 1tph between 7&8am rather than 3. It’s faster for Larbert and Stirling, not for BofA and Dunblane. Linlithgow and Polmont have also see a decrease.
     
  16. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

    Messages:
    14,880
    Joined:
    16 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Sheffield
    Yes, it's down from three trains between 07:00 and 08:00 - that sounds terrible - but then you look at the facts and one of the reasons for this is because the Perth - Edinburgh service (the first of those three Dunblane departures) now runs slightly earlier at 06:58 - and is sped up so that it arrives into Waverley at 08:05 rather than 08:17 - it feels like cherry picking to me when one of the complaints (about the severe sounding reduction in two thirds of services) is partly because one of them now leaves a couple of minutes before seven rather than a couple of minutes after seven.

    The 07:23 (the one service actually withdrawn, rather than retimed) arrived at Waverley within three minutes of the ex-Perth service (08:17 and 08:20), so it's not like there's a *huge* gap left by its withdrawal.

    Current arrivals into Waverley in the morning rush “hour” from Stirling are

    • 07:32 (Dunblane)
    • 08:17 (Perth)
    • 08:20 (Dunblane)
    • 08:45 (Alloa)
    • 09:05 (Dunblane)

    They move to

    • 07:29 (Dunblane)
    • 08:05 (Perth)
    • 08:41 (Alloa)
    • 08:59 (Dunblane)

    Some winners, some losers - the 08:59 arrival into Waverley may be early enough for some people to get to Edinburgh Park at 08:45 in time to get to their desks at nine (which the 08:53 is a bit too tight for currently). Swings and roundabouts.

    Current arrivals into Waverley in the morning rush “hour” from Falkirk Grahamston are

    • 07:32 (Dunblane)
    • 08:17 (Perth - note that the 08:20 arrival into Waverley runs non-stop through Falkirk)
    • 08:45 (Alloa)
    • 09:05 (Dunblane)

    They move to

    • 07:08 (Cumbernauld)
    • 07:29 (Dunblane)
    • 07:39 (Cumbernauld)
    • 08:05 (Perth)
    • 08:14 (Cumbernauld)
    • 08:41 (Alloa)
    • 08:46 (Cumbernauld)
    • 08:59 (Dunblane)

    …so double the services for Falkirk, a reduction of 20% for Stirling. Seems to me like a greater number of people benefit (especially as two trains arriving into Waverley from Dunblane within a three minute period isn’t an ideal bit of scheduling).
     
  17. Stopper

    Stopper Member

    Messages:
    436
    Joined:
    11 Nov 2017
    Dunblane services will now sit in platforms 6&9 at Stirling for around 10 minutes. It’s a reduction in journey times for Stirling, Larbert, Camelon (unnecessary) and Grahamston, not for Dunblane and Bridge of Allan. Linlithgow and Polmont are having their double unit morning Dunblane/Perth/Alloa services replaced with single unit bizarre Cumbernauld services. There’s no doubt it benefits a fair amount of people, but it also inconveniences a lot (Dunblane, Linlithgow, Polmont, Bridge of Allan). There were ways to deliver these improvements without making the timetable worse for these 4 stations.

    Also note that Grahamston is more of a “destination” than an Edinburgh commuter station. 4tph to Edinburgh isn’t really necessary considering High gets 4tph shuttles to Edinburgh. So whether these can be considered necessary improvements, considering the busy stations (Linlithgow, Polmont, Dunblane) that this is affecting.
     
    Last edited: 20 Oct 2018
  18. Mingulay

    Mingulay Member

    Messages:
    232
    Joined:
    5 Mar 2018

    My main gripe is feeling hoodwinked and misled. , the service has been suffering for years , delays short stopping overcrowding. They tell you for years that it's all going to be better after all the upheaval.. so when the reality dawns it's actually worse , then it's a bitter letdown.

    Do remember this project has caused a lot of inconvenience . Not just to passengers . The springkerse bridge closure has affected buisinesses badly. People are out of pocket. Retailers down , lost income. Thistle centre adversely affected. You say so what? Remember it's standard life and your pension income. It has hit incomes and rents . Its not just a longer detour around town. So the end result needs to be worth while long term. I accept it is infrastructure improvements. But to unveil the new electric trains with a poorer timetable is going to go down badly when the majority of the public realise , not just the handful on this forum. So I hope that those who are disappointed shout loud and don't let the hype drown out the reality. Don't let Transport Minister or Alex H spin the truth . It's not just about a few minutes potentially saved for Glasgow Edinburgh commuters
     
  19. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,682
    Joined:
    2 Sep 2016
    Location:
    Weegieland
    These are only the December timetable changes, it's worth remembering there are going to be further changes on the Edinburgh-Glasgow, Glasgow-Dunblane and Edinburgh-Dunblane timetables in May.

    I appreciate that regardless Polmont and Linlithgow lose direct services from the Stirling direction, but the timings may well change again in May seeing as a further 5 minutes is to be cut from journey times then.
     
  20. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

    Messages:
    14,880
    Joined:
    16 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Sheffield
    Looking at the off-peak pattern, southbound the Dunblane services currently depart around xx:28 and xx:58, taking around sixty six minutes to arrive at Waverley.

    The new timetable sees them leave at around the same times each hour but arrive at Waverley approximately eight minutes earlier than they currently do.

    Northbound the xx:04 and xx:34 departures get into Dunblane around sixty four minutes later.

    The new timetable becomes departures at around xx:24 and xx:54, taking around an hour.

    (there's a minute here and a minute there due to pathing, but I'm trying to go for average times in both scenarios)

    I appreciate that there's one evening departure (17:18) in the new timetable that sees the unit sit at Stirling for thirteen minutes (admittedly Dunblane passengers can change onto the Stirling service for a faster journey home) but the general service pattern is a faster service for Dunblane.

    IF these Cumbernauld services are as empty as everyone keeps saying then Polmont passengers will be boarding a virtually empty train in the morning rush hour without having to worry about the large numbers of Stirlingshire passengers already on board.

    Falkirk High is quite out of the way for a lot of the Falkirk area - over half a mile walk and a climb of over a hundred feet - so an improved service at Grahamston will be a big boost for local passengers. Much better local bus connections at Grahamston for more of the Falkirk area too.

    Attracting more "Falkirk" passengers to Grahamston will hopefully free up a few seats on the Edinburgh - Glasgow service via Falkirk High (in the way that Cumbernauld may free up a few seats from passengers who currently use Croy). Given the platform constraints at Queen Street, every little difference helps here.

    I agree - it's not just about a few minutes saved for Glasgow - Edinburgh commuters. It's about a few minutes saved for Dunblane - Edinburgh passengers too (due to no longer stopping at Polmont/ Linlithgow).

    But instead we'll have more arguments on here about the seemingly huge cut in Dunblane's service (because bringing the first departure after seven to 06:58 means it no longer counts in the carefully cherry-picked timeframe.

    True.

    The first timetable with electric stock generally doesn't see a big improvement in journey times (based on when this has happened elsewhere in the UK), partly due to the fender of DMU-substitution meaning that they can't guarantee the faster accelerating electric stock - once 385s etc are virtually guaranteed next year, the timetable can be stepped up to something that a 90mph 158 couldn't have coped with.
     
  21. Stopper

    Stopper Member

    Messages:
    436
    Joined:
    11 Nov 2017
    Doesn’t answer any questions. Just repeating that it improves Stirling and (unnecessary) Falkirk/Camelon services but it doesn’t actually improve Dunblane, Linlithgow or Polmont, it actually is worse off than before for these stations.

    People are rightly complaining and I, along with many others are heading for the car.
     
  22. Mingulay

    Mingulay Member

    Messages:
    232
    Joined:
    5 Mar 2018
    If cherry picking is focusing on the trains that work commuters use then I accept I am cherry picking. Guilty as charged. If I and other commuters had the luxury of starting at 10 And fininishing and finishing at 3.30 then no problem.
     
  23. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,682
    Joined:
    2 Sep 2016
    Location:
    Weegieland
    I sincerely hope they make further adjustments in May, some of the Glasgow QS-Aberdeen take nearly 3 hours and with fewer stops!
     
  24. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

    Messages:
    14,880
    Joined:
    16 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Sheffield
    Put it this way - this is probably the biggest recast in a generation and the only real complaints are that Dunblane doesn't have both an 08:17 and 08:20 arrival into Waverley (the two replaced by one service) and there's one northbound service held at Stirling (for the Aberdeen service to pass).

    In the time I've been on the Forum, people have complained about every timetable change, people have complained about virtually every cascade of rolling stock - but the usual situation is that one inconvenienced passenger will make significantly more noise about it than a large number of people who see benefits - bad news sells.

    "Unnecessary" improvements at Cameron/ Grahamston? Doubling the Edinburgh frequency from central Falkirk (with speed increases too) is unnecessary? Given how awkward High is for much of Falkirk, we could see a large shift to Grahamston for Edinburgh-bound journeys once people have time to adjust to the new timetable.

    Generally faster services from Dunblane/ Stirling to Waverley (due tot he removed stops) not an improvement? Without the need to compete for seats with the Polmont/ Linlithgow passengers?

    By cherry picking, I mean things likely focussing on Dunblane services after 07:00 so it looks like there's been a huge reduction in Dunblane services, when the reality is that one service has been brought forward a couple of minutes to 06:58 - aye.

    Dunblane arrivals into Waverley between seven and nine go down from four to three (i.e. removal of one of the two trains that arrives at Waverley within three minutes of the other)... no change in Alloa arrivals into Waverley during that period , but Grahamston arrivals into Waverley go up from four to eight. Overall positive to me - but if you choose your definitions carefully then you can make the 06:58 look like it's disappeared.

    It'll be interesting to see how the HSTs cope with current timings - acceleration of full length HSTs isn't great but with only four or five coaches to haul they might be quicker off the mark than 158/170s - no use for their top speed of course.
     
  25. chuff chuff

    chuff chuff Member

    Messages:
    74
    Joined:
    25 Sep 2018
    The short formed HST pee's all over 158/170 for acceleration.
     
  26. Mingulay

    Mingulay Member

    Messages:
    232
    Joined:
    5 Mar 2018

    I sense we are going round in circles here. Those that voice concern in stations seeing s poorer service are trumped by those who are not. Human nature.

    I suggest we all await the start of the timetable and judge the changes then.

    Let’s build in the inevitable reality. Trains will b cancelled due to all manner of reasons. How does that impact . In DUNBLANE if we lose that one service we are waiting a long time. Also let’s not forget. The on time reality is often 3 mins late but scotrail deem that on time. Whereas the world of real passengers that is late

    The timetable may not just work well at all in practice. And queuing into Waverley delays it may mean even GLASGOW passengers judge it all a bit underwhelming sitting on there apparently hard seats !
     
  27. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,682
    Joined:
    2 Sep 2016
    Location:
    Weegieland
    Eventually a 2+9 HST will bear a 170 to 100 mph. A 2+5 let alone a 2+4 will utterly trounce a Turbo.
     
  28. snookertam

    snookertam Member

    Messages:
    94
    Joined:
    22 Sep 2018
    Really? I'd have thought it was the other way around. Public Performance Measure is for five minutes, but that's different from saying whether a train is on time or not. Whereas I really don't think most passengers would notice a three minute delay over a route of that length.
     
  29. Mingulay

    Mingulay Member

    Messages:
    232
    Joined:
    5 Mar 2018
    Perhaps not as they are so used to that kind of delay, which as you say when its the norm at peak time, is barely noticed . But if you are awaiting 13 mins at Stirling for a connection and its say 5 min delay that's you waiting 18 mins in a cold station and the total journey is significantly longer than we currently have on this timetable .
     
  30. Stopper

    Stopper Member

    Messages:
    436
    Joined:
    11 Nov 2017
    The approximately 10 minute waits at Stirling, and the single unit running on Cumbernauld services, aswell as running a Cumbernauld service altogether is absolutely unacceptable and cannot be defended by anyone without an agenda. The fact Linlithgow is remaining at 4tph to Edinburgh is also very disappointing. Car it is come December!
     
  31. Kite159

    Kite159 Veteran Member

    Messages:
    11,450
    Joined:
    27 Jan 2014
    Location:
    West of Andover
    Good, let us know how you get on driving to/from Edinburgh in rush hour traffic, attempting to find a parking spot etc.

    Problem is all those lovely fare dodgers of Linlithgow, who love it when a pair of 365s tip up as they aim straight for the front unit in the hope of getting a free ride.
     

Share This Page