Scotrail Franchise - Abellio

[Scotrail88]

With the bids now submitted and the award looking like October, has there been any slips of what is contained within some of the bids and any rumours to who is taking the lead.

 

[jopsuk]

Arriva are proposing upgrading the line to Aberdeen and then onto to Inverness to 140mph, twin track throughout.
MTR want to run metro-style units every ten minutes on the West Highland Line
National Express are proposing a "Pacer Mark 2" programme, this time using coaches rather than buses
It turns out that First are behind the "turn LU D-Stock into DMUs" rumour. They plan on using them for trains from the central belt to Inverness
Abellio want to paint the trains white.

(aka, I should hope there aren't any leaks. Daft question)

 

[swt_passenger]

They've all quite correctly kept their plans for the use of 442s under wraps as well...

 

[WatcherZero]

In seriousness

Only thing ive heard is that a majority of bidders proposed using Mk3's for the 'Tourism coach' requirement.

 

[backontrack]

MTR want to run metro-style units every ten minutes on the West Highland Line

What on earth?

(I want Arriva or First from what we know, but there's going to be more)

 

[jopsuk]

Of all my "exclusive leaks" that was the only one that struck you as being unlikely?

 

[Carlisle]

They've all quite correctly kept their plans for the use of 442s under wraps as well...

That's cos they have opted for refurbished class 483s instead

 

[codenamecuebal]

why can't the scottish government make it state owned?

 

[pemma]

National Express are proposing a "Pacer Mark 2" programme, this time using coaches rather than buses

Pacers are specifically banned from being used by the next Scotrail franchisee due to the franchise requirement for properly boogied stock on all Scotrail routes.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Pacers are specifically banned from being used by the next Scotrail franchisee due to the franchise requirement for properly boogied stock on all Scotrail routes.

Is that to allow for on-board Ceilidhs?

 

[NotATrainspott]

why can't the scottish government make it state owned?

The Scottish Parliament is not currently allowed to change the way that the railways are run. It was given control over the ScotRail franchise - it has then chosen to split that into a Sleeper franchise as well - and it can legislate to build new railways. Labour's 'devo-max' proposals are effectively the same as they propose for the entire UK, but in any case little of this (even independence) makes much of a difference when the franchise contracts are both signed. Serco have said that they would not pull out if there were a Yes vote and there's no logical reason for any of the everyday ScotRail bidders to do the same. Bizarrely, the plethora of contracts in the privatised railway most certainly makes it difficult for the rail network to change much upon independence. If BR had still existed then it wouldn't have been as difficult to can the sleeper completely once it's no longer used for MPs to get to and from work.

 

[pemma]

Is that to allow for on-board Ceilidhs?

Cost saving measure. It uses the kinetic energy people produce to power the train

 

[Simon11]

Of all my "exclusive leaks" that was the only one that struck you as being unlikely?

I have to admit, I nearly fell for it too. Looks like I put too much trust when I see a well written post. I actually worked on one of the bids and I was sure that in our plans we didn't plan to do the item you had listed

 

[Steve childs]

All I heard today and over the last week is First will bag the east coast line. The main scotrail is still up in the air. Good commonwealth games and ryder cup will do no harm.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

All I heard today and over the last week is First will bag the east coast line. The main scotrail is still up in the air. Good commonwealth games and ryder cup will do no harm.

Like First were tipped to win TSGN?
Bids are judged "blind" until the last minute, which is probably a couple of months away for both competitions.
The ICEC bids only went in on June 14, so the analysis will not be anything like complete yet.

 

[Steve childs]

Are they really judged blind? I never knew that but it would make a lot of sense. I may have learned something today. Thanks for that, I only hear gossip. You never know with government they are not to be trusted. They still have consultation with at least 2 companies before they award the winner so they do know who is bidding what. If First lose Scotrail they may as well pack their bags as there is not much left for them in the UK the way things are going for them. Shame as they are amazing to work for.

 

[Simon11]

Hmm they can't really be judged blind, without having any idea of the operator-

Firstly, it would be very easy to identify the presence operator, because they will mention this in the bid plan and thus will be cheaper for mobilisation stage.

Secondly, in the bid plans, bidders need to state their previous experience. So if they plan to introduce Advance ticketing, they need to state where they have had experience of this, to demonstrate it is possible to reduce the risk.

 

[WatcherZero]

Previous experience is in pre-qualification before formal bids. They have to treat the mobilisation stage as if they were a fresh bidder, new equipment, uniforms, signage, etc... It keeps the playing field level or else the incumbent would always win.

 

[Simon11]

It gives them a slight advantage being the existing operator, as they can do the mobilisation quicker (since they understand the processes within the TOC and staff) and therefore requires less staff to manage it. However, the mobilisation costs only count for a tiny margin of the whole lifetime costs of the franchise.

In your bid plans, you have to show evidence supporting your initiatives and proof that your plans are creditable. Most operators would refer back to their own operations.

Finally, the bid plans are branded in the TOC colours....

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It gives them a slight advantage being the existing operator, as they can do the mobilisation quicker (since they understand the processes within the TOC and staff) and therefore requires less staff to manage it. However, the mobilisation costs only count for a tiny margin of the whole lifetime costs of the franchise.

In your bid plans, you have to show evidence supporting your initiatives and proof that your plans are creditable. Most operators would refer back to their own operations.

Finally, the bid plans are branded in the TOC colours....

I think you'll find that the crucial spreadsheet number-crunching to arrive at the baseline scores is done by people who have no sight of the bid branding.
Different consultants are also used to analyse different sections of the bid - very few people will have sight of the overall situation or the branding.
The bidders also have no idea how many others are in negotiations for a contract.

 

[3141]

Different consultants are also used to analyse different sections of the bid - very few people will have sight of the overall situation or the branding.
.

And that, it seems to me, adds to the unlikelihood that anyone would be in a position to say that this or that bidder is in the lead, especially so early in the assessments.

At a somewhat later stage some bidders will no longer be being asked questions by DfT and they will realise that they're unlikely to win. But that won't tell us whether one of the remaining bidders is in a stronger position than another.

 

[Scotrail88]

Surely the meetings have commenced with the bidders and maybe once the Commonwealth Games has finished we will hear some more regarding the prospects that are being put forward by some of the operators.

 

[swt_passenger]

Surely the meetings have commenced with the bidders and maybe once the Commonwealth Games has finished we will hear some more regarding the prospects that are being put forward by some of the operators.

We really shouldn't hear anything about anyone's plans, because as part of the bid process they sign up to they are forbidden to share them with the public until the announcement of the winner is confirmed, under threat of disqualification - and the losers are not supposed to publish anything even after the decision is made.

However, the Department also regards commercial confidentiality as essential. It cannot secure the best deal for passengers and taxpayers unless it can operate a commercially confidential procurement process. The Department will not, therefore, release any information on unsuccessful bids, because doing so could result in lower VfM in subsequent franchising rounds. Nor will the Department release information which allows a comparison to be made between the winning bid and the second placed and other bids as this could have market consequences for the winning bidder. Access to bid information is very tightly restricted within the Department. Likewise, the Department insists that bidders do not discuss with anyone the details of their bid or their discussions with the Department.
http://webarchive.nationalarchives....franchises/procurementprocess/pdf/process.pdf

The only competition I remember where the losing bidder did a public comparison of their proposals with the winner was Virgin after the WCML farce...

 

[WatcherZero]

One of the previous East Coast franchise winners that collapsed did as well, cant remember which.

Its usually only a couple of weeks before the winner is announced when they enter final talks with one of the bidders and the talks with a reserve bidder fizzle out that details leak but when they do its a flood, Dft is like a sieve.

 

[92002]

One of the previous East Coast franchise winners that collapsed did as well, cant remember which.

Its usually only a couple of weeks before the winner is announced when they enter final talks with one of the bidders and the talks with a reserve bidder fizzle out that details leak but when they do its a flood, Dft is like a sieve.

Considering the ScotRail contract is being let by Transport Scotland, I can't really see the relevance of your DfT comments.

Rumours already exist, but I couldn't possibly comment.

 

[WatcherZero]

Dft has to sign off the Newcastle services and be consulted with for issues affecting cross border services according to the ITT.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Dft has to sign off the Newcastle services and be consulted with for issues affecting cross border services according to the ITT.

And the civil service processes involved are pretty much identical, confidentiality agreements with Network Rail, ROSCOS and manufacturers etc.
Any favouritism could lead to a legal challenge.

 

[WatcherZero]

Indeed, ORR is heavily involved too but is one Government agency that rarely seems to leak.

 

[92002]

Dft has to sign off the Newcastle services and be consulted with for issues affecting cross border services according to the ITT.

However the Newcastle services are part of the Northern franchise, who hire in a couple of ScotRail trains for the service from Carlisle. Whilst the cross border trains are provided by Virgin, FTPE and East Coast.

None of these are part of the ScotRail franchise. So DfT have no influence in awarding the contract.

 

[Class 170101]

There were suggestions in the ITT of Newcastle to Edinburgh services via the ECML being part of the Scotrail franchise calling at intermediate stations