Scotrail Franchise - Abellio

[Bungle965]

Cal Mac are actually pretty good at running ferries, if you think that's bad you should have a look at some other shipping companies, you'd be horified...trust me.

Slightly off topic but is there any particular ones that should be avoided?
Sam

 

[HH]

Cal Mac are actually pretty good at running ferries, if you think that's bad you should have a look at some other shipping companies, you'd be horified...trust me.

However good they are at running ferries (and that is debatable), they have zero experience of running trains. If they are to have even the ghost of a chance of winning, then they would need the rules to be changed. They could not qualify on their own under the current.

 

[oldman]

I was a little surprised to find that David MacBrayne is 50% owner of the operator of a military port in Hampshire - Solent Gateway Limited, so I suppose they could form a joint venture to bid for a rail franchise. Not clear where the money would come from.

 

[route:oxford]

Cal Mac are actually pretty good at running ferries, if you think that's bad you should have a look at some other shipping companies, you'd be horified...trust me.

Being the least awful company doesn't automatically make them good.

There are plenty of other publically owned companies that could bid for and operate the service. Blackpool Transport, Lothian Buses, NITHCO, even TfL...

 

[Northhighland]

Cal Mac are actually pretty good at running ferries, if you think that's bad you should have a look at some other shipping companies, you'd be horified...trust me.

Honestly there are so many examples of how they are not good at running ferries. They require extortionate subsidies, run poor timetables and anywhere they face competition they lose.

Look at western Ferries to Dunoon. Look at Pentland ferries on the north coast. Look at the new ships. How many break down. Latest new ones over a year late. Poor design.

Imagine that running our Railway. God forbid.

 

[Highland37]

That's a very confused post mixing many things under one heading. Yes, the subsidy is large. Approaching railway levels in real terms but the service is much more critical. If every railway in Scotland shut down, you could still get to every place by other means. The two are not comparable.

Calmac are not building ships. That is for ship builders to do. The two late ones are being built by Fergusons.

Incrementally though, we should be replacing ferry crossings with tunnels and bridges such as Norway has and is doing.

I use Calmac often and the service is much better than Scotrail which I surmise is due to better working conditions and less stressed staff.

 

[theironroad]

Honestly there are so many examples of how they are not good at running ferries. They require extortionate subsidies, run poor timetables and anywhere they face competition they lose.

Look at western Ferries to Dunoon. Look at Pentland ferries on the north coast. Look at the new ships. How many break down. Latest new ones over a year late. Poor design.

Imagine that running our Railway. God forbid.

Calmac will probably always require subsidy. A gourock to Dunoon commuter route isnt in the same boast as multi-hour year round trips from Oban to the western isles.

 

[haggishunter]

Look at western Ferries to Dunoon. Look at Pentland ferries on the north coast. Look at the new ships. How many break down. Latest new ones over a year late. Poor design.

You wouldn't be getting very far in the Pentalina in this:



Here's a good ideological rant about Scottish Ferries: http://www.leithermagazine.com/2014/04/15/pays-ferryman-notes-scandal.html

In the case of Northlink they miss so many vital points, the Pentalina is smaller and nimbler because it has to be to operate between the points it does, the flip side of that is that by Pentland Firth standards she's a 'fair weather' craft. The Pentalina doesn't sail through storms, it can not stand in for a turn to Shetland and back, all factors on the design and specification of the Hamnavoe. The Scrabster Stromness route also connects in with public transport which is relevant to the many heated debates on here about the economics of the Far North Line.

Much is made about the shorter crossing from Gills Bay, the greater frequency is it's main benefit, the time saving only exists if the 30minutes saved on the boat isn't spent driving at either end. The claim that the Pentland Ferries has never had any public support misses out that the Gills Bay infrastructure was built by the Orkney Islands Council in the failed attempt to introduce a short sea crossing of around 30mins from Gills Bay to Burwick.

Building the Pentalina took longer than planned and half way through it's journey to Scotland it had to return to the shipyard.

The mentality and attitude towards rural connectivity and communities is so poor in the UK compared to much of the rest of Europe, certainly when you look at the more enlightened attitudes in Nordic countries. It has improved somewhat with the return of the Scottish Parliament, but if this was a Nordic country we'd not be having this debate because either the railway or A9 or more likely both would already extend to Kirkwall.

 

[Altnabreac]

Basically sleep on crew on large ferries in open water routes cost more to operate.

Small ferries operating frequently on short crossings are more efficient and cheaper.

There are also issues around year round crewing levels being high to meet a high number of maximum foot passengers that may only be required on a few peak weekends per year.

But all these issues are less to do with Calmac than down to the service levels specified and the need for Calmac to meet stricter availability and weather challenges than commercial rivals on non critical routes.

The answer is to invest more in fixed links - Bridges and Tunnels etc but this is unlikely to be popular with the maritime unions and may also be unpopular with locals who like the island life. There can also be tension between retirees who want the isolation and the economically active population who want new links.

As a minimum fixed links should be looked at for Sound of Harris, Luing, Yell, Unst, Whalsay, Bressay, Eday, Westray, Sanday, Stronsay, Shapinsay, Rousay, Egilsay, Graemsay, Hoy, Flotta, Kerrera, Lismore and Mull.

What you notice about that list though is that only four out of twenty of those routes are actually Calmac routes.

 

[Highland37]

Well said Haggis Hunter and Allt na Breac.

The discourse is so appalling when compared with Nordic countries.

I'd add Corran and Kyes of Bute and Sound of Islay to your list Alltnabreac.

The quality of thinking, alongside the mix of practical things being mixed up with party politics, means the UK is further and further behind.

 

[Altnabreac]

Well said Haggis Hunter and Allt na Breac.

The discourse is so appalling when compared with Nordic countries.

I'd add Corran and Kyes of Bute and Sound of Islay to your list Alltnabreac.

The quality of thinking, alongside the mix of practical things being mixed up with party politics, means the UK is further and further behind.

Corran is a good call. Islay - Jura too. Suspect the best solution for Islay is a move to the Overland ferry route via Jura but it would need a lot of money spent on road improvements and port infrastructure.

Point on all these things is that those sort of decisions are strategic investment decisions made by Transport Scotland rather than operational decisions by Calmac.

Calmac has issues around a rather cosy relationship with the Unions and some slightly inefficient operations but in general does a decent job providing the service. Suspect a Calmac run Scotrail would be similar. Would kill off extension of DCO etc which Unions will like but unlikely that for most rail users it would be significantly different to the current franchise.

 

[GrimShady]

Very well said chaps.

Cal Mac may not be perfect but given the service levels required and the stringent maritime requirements they do very well.

 

[GrimShady]

Slightly off topic but is there any particular ones that should be avoided?
Sam

I'll pm you.

 

[GrimShady]

However good they are at running ferries (and that is debatable), they have zero experience of running trains. If they are to have even the ghost of a chance of winning, then they would need the rules to be changed. They could not qualify on their own under the current.

Valid point.

In their defence they are very safety conscious which is something I can't say about other shipping companies out there.

 

[InOban]

This is getting rather off topic, but there is a link. Posters seem to be confusing the lifeline service, needed to give the resident community year-round access, with the needs of the tourist. This confusion assumes that the tourist industry is the only industry. Fortunately it isn't. The western isles depend primarily on shellfish, on salmon farming, on agriculture, and on some fin fishing. They aren't a tourist resort, they are real communities which people like to visit. Posters make the same confusion when discussing the WHL, Kyle, or Far North lines.

As Pentland Ferries have shown, if you design your service around the real, day to day needs of the residents, you can deliver a service which charges generally lower fares and requires no subsidy. It would be interesting to know on how many occasions their boat has been unable to operate but the Hamnavoe has.

 

[Highlandspring]

I was a little surprised to find that David MacBrayne is 50% owner of the operator of a military port in Hampshire - Solent Gateway Limited

In the east David MacBrayne also recently acquired Perth Harbour, which is more or less moribund. There is a short video about it on their youtube channel where the Managing Director explains he is very keen to diversify the company’s interests into new areas of business in line with the Scottish Government’s policy on inclusive growth. That to me suggests a franchise bid by David MacBrayne is a very strong possibility.

 

[Altnabreac]

This is getting rather off topic, but there is a link. Posters seem to be confusing the lifeline service, needed to give the resident community year-round access, with the needs of the tourist. This confusion assumes that the tourist industry is the only industry. Fortunately it isn't. The western isles depend primarily on shellfish, on salmon farming, on agriculture, and on some fin fishing. They aren't a tourist resort, they are real communities which people like to visit. Posters make the same confusion when discussing the WHL, Kyle, or Far North lines.

As Pentland Ferries have shown, if you design your service around the real, day to day needs of the residents, you can deliver a service which charges generally lower fares and requires no subsidy. It would be interesting to know on how many occasions their boat has been unable to operate but the Hamnavoe has.

Pentland Ferries and Western Ferries are basically like Open Access operators on rail. It works in a limited number of circumstances where you have quite a large population, sufficient infrastructure, usually already created by the public sector and an opportunity to deliver a differentiated service at a competitive price.

The Pentland Ferries zero subsidy model isn't going to work for small islands with limited populations and reduced traveller numbers just as Open Access operators aren't snapping up rural branch lines and bus operators aren't keen on Sunday and evening services.

There are at best two or three more places a Pentland / Western type operation could work - probably Islay, Mull and perhaps Lewis although in all three cases there is a lack of spare port infrastructure to allow new routes to operate.

No one is going to be running a Pentland Ferries type solution to get to Colonsay or Barra anytime soon though. Its just not possible to operate a subsidy less service on routes like those.

 

[HH]

In the east David MacBrayne also recently acquired Perth Harbour, which is more or less moribund. There is a short video about it on their youtube channel where the Managing Director explains he is very keen to diversify the company’s interests into new areas of business in line with the Scottish Government’s policy on inclusive growth. That to me suggests a franchise bid by David MacBrayne is a very strong possibility.

Well then, he'd have to join forces with someone who actually knew how to run a railway, which is a little more complex than a ferry service.

 

[kylemore]

Fixed links are not automatically going to do away with ferries, for instance with Mull presumably any fixed link would be at a narrow point in the Sound of Mull and to Bute at Colintraive in the Kyles of Bute. In both instances the main ferry routes - Craignure-Oban and Rothesay-Wemyss Bay - respectively would continue to operate.

 

[Highland37]

Off topic but anyone interested in infrastructure might want to check out the "Infrastructure for Scotland" page on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Infrastructure.scot/

 

[Highland37]

Fixed links are not automatically going to do away with ferries, for instance with Mull presumably any fixed link would be at a narrow point in the Sound of Mull and to Bute at Colintraive in the Kyles of Bute. In both instances the main ferry routes - Craignure-Oban and Rothesay-Wemyss Bay - respectively would continue to operate.

https://www.facebook.com/Infrastructure.scot/photos/a.1919059774801903/1972293256145221/?type=3

 

[InOban]

I wasn't suggesting that most Calmac services could be run subsidy free. But since the ferry terminals don't belong to the ferry operator, they should all be open access. Anyway, back to trains!

 

[The Ham]

even TfL...

That would go down well with some then thinking that their trains were funding trains in London!

 

[ScotTrains]

The answer is to invest more in fixed links - Bridges and Tunnels etc but this is unlikely to be popular with the maritime unions and may also be unpopular with locals who like the island life. There can also be tension between retirees who want the isolation and the economically active population who want new links.

Personally I hope we don't have any more fixed links. Bridges can spoil the beauty of the landscape. The Skye bridge for example is boring, grey, unattractive and spoils the view down the sound. The island effectively becomes part of the mainland, therefore taking away their sought after isolation and charm (island life etc).
Ferries, esp Calmac ones, all add to the tourism experience. People come from all over the world to visit Scottish islands by ferry. Driving to them is just not the same. To this day I have never used the Skye bridge, instead since it opened in 1995 I now go via the Mallaig ferry. Extreme I know, but there are many who do this. The ferry adds to the experience.
I know they are less convenient, more costly etc, but a price worth paying in my view.

 

[Altnabreac]

Personally I hope we don't have any more fixed links. Bridges can spoil the beauty of the landscape. The Skye bridge for example is boring, grey, unattractive and spoils the view down the sound. The island effectively becomes part of the mainland, therefore taking away their sought after isolation and charm (island life etc).
Ferries, esp Calmac ones, all add to the tourism experience. People come from all over the world to visit Scottish islands by ferry. Driving to them is just not the same. To this day I have never used the Skye bridge, instead since it opened in 1995 I now go via the Mallaig ferry. Extreme I know, but there are many who do this. The ferry adds to the experience.
I know they are less convenient, more costly etc, but a price worth paying in my view.

Very off topic but that is certainly a view taken by some locals, especially amongst incomers and retirees. Much less so amongst those trying to make a living. If you look at areas like the Lofoten in Norway no sign that the fixed links have reduced tourism.

But to get back on topic there is the transportation value of ferries and rail routes and there is the tourism value. Both need to be recognised but the transportation value needs to be the primary driver of investment. Calmac is pretty good at getting that balance right but there will always be tensions.

 

[Highland37]

Yes but it comes across to me as hyper selfish in that no mention is made of the declining population in many areas, that young people are leaving, the issues with delivering health care and other public services and the total abandonment of all businesses to much lower access to markets and much higher costs. For example, there simply wouldn't be the tourism sector in Skye right now without the bridge.

Of course ScotTrains could always spend a day on the Corran Ferry (free) surveying people to see if they would prefer the ferry or tunnel/bridge or the same in Skye in November when there are less tourists.

 

[GrimShady]

Yes but it comes across to me as hyper selfish in that no mention is made of the declining population in many areas, that young people are leaving, the issues with delivering health care and other public services and the total abandonment of all businesses to much lower access to markets and much higher costs. For example, there simply wouldn't be the tourism sector in Skye right now without the bridge.

Of course ScotTrains could always spend a day on the Corran Ferry (free) surveying people to see if they would prefer the ferry or tunnel/bridge or the same in Skye in November when there are less tourists.

He's got a point, the ships are extremely popular with the foreign brigade. Watching the islands from sea is a superior experience.

 

[Highland37]

He certainly does but lets not get this out of proportion. We are talking in the hundreds per day. Not massive numbers and all of the evidence from places like Norway, is that fixed links increase tourism. In fact I can't think of a single place which has not had more tourists when a fixed link opens.

 

[GrimShady]

He certainly does but lets not get this out of proportion. We are talking in the hundreds per day. Not massive numbers and all of the evidence from places like Norway, is that fixed links increase tourism. In fact I can't think of a single place which has not had more tourists when a fixed link opens.

Food for thought, even Norway has its fair share of small passenger vessels.

And in the high season, its not hundreds, it's more like thousands.

 

[Sybic26]

Food for thought, even Norway has its fair share of small passenger vessels.

And in the high season, its not hundreds, it's more like thousands.

Benefits of fixed links are: you can travel when you want to (not constrained by a timetable), cheap (no ferry fares or road tolls), not always constrained by the weather, bridges generally do not break down.