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Scotrail Full Alcohol Ban

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DB

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I don't have strong views either way on a long-term alcohol ban, but I would point out that the worst trains I've ever encountered for drunken morons are those out of York on race days - and they are already so pissed by the time they get on (or fall on in many cases) that they can barely stand. Not sure that an alcohol ban would have much effect on these.
 
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Spartacus

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Unfortunately, many people under the influence on trains will be so because they consumed it before boarding. I would say 99% of the times I have been "under the influence" on a train was because I was on the way home from somewhere where I had been drinking rather than doing so on board.

Quite so. In my experience you'd just end up with most people who would be problematic getting $hitfaced before they boarded, lots and lots of alcohol before boarding, rather than spreading it out over a period of time, in other words, pre-loading. You might even get more problems with people being paralytic on platforms, as per the TPE ale trail after it became popular with more than just ale fans.
 

rangersac

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Back in the day when I lived in Oban, it was always a bit of an eye opener getting on the 8:10 to Glasgow, which at the time was the first train of the day and finding folk cracking open the Tennants cans. Which highlights that for me the issue is less about consumption of alcohol on trains, and more about carry-on being being consumed. If you consider that a train is effectively a licensed premises on wheels then I think it's reasonable for there to be a ban on consumption of personal alcohol supplies, with sales on the train being permitted. You wouldn't expect to be allowed to go into a bar or a pub and start necking your own booze, so why should a train be any different? The added benefit would be that anyone aiming to get really liquored up would struggle, as the trolley only comes around infrequently, whereas those would would like a pleasant drink or two watching the countryside pass don't have to suffer the consequences of a minority of idiots.
 

rangersac

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It isn't - trains are exempt from the requirement for an alcohol license.

I didn't say it is a licensed premises, I said it effectively is. Many of the same regulations apply, such as the person selling alcohol on the train is required to assess whether the purchaser is of age, and whether they are in a fit state to consume alcohol as per a staff member in a licensed premises.
 

yorksrob

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Back in the day when I lived in Oban, it was always a bit of an eye opener getting on the 8:10 to Glasgow, which at the time was the first train of the day and finding folk cracking open the Tennants cans. Which highlights that for me the issue is less about consumption of alcohol on trains, and more about carry-on being being consumed. If you consider that a train is effectively a licensed premises on wheels then I think it's reasonable for there to be a ban on consumption of personal alcohol supplies, with sales on the train being permitted. You wouldn't expect to be allowed to go into a bar or a pub and start necking your own booze, so why should a train be any different? The added benefit would be that anyone aiming to get really liquored up would struggle, as the trolley only comes around infrequently, whereas those would would like a pleasant drink or two watching the countryside pass don't have to suffer the consequences of a minority of idiots.

If the choice of ale at a pub's rubbish, I can go to another one. On the train, you'd be stuck with whatever the TOC wanted to put on their trolley.

That said, some TOC's have decent offerings:

GW - St Austell Brewery
Great Anglia - Adnams
South Eastern used to do Shepherd Neame when they still had trolleys.
South West Railway had the badger brewery if I recall.
 

rangersac

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If the choice of ale at a pub's rubbish, I can go to another one. On the train, you'd be stuck with whatever the TOC wanted to put on their trolley.

Sure, although noting that there are plenty of parts of the country where there aren't an overabundance of pubs to choose from, or where the choice of ales at the pub leaves a lot to be desired! Additionally if only alcohol purchased on the train could be consumed, it could be more of an incentive for an enterprising TOC to stock something decent for sale.
 

HSP 2

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This is my experience. Banning the carryout would help massively- only alcohol bought on board can be consumed on board!

That sounds so simple, but what about when your train home is over 2 hours and has no trolley services. What do you do, I know what I do it's buy my drink and carry it on board. The problems then start at about an hour into the trip and all of the drunks get on and all of the volume goes up.

Most of the time it's not people drinking on trains that cause the problems it the ones that are drunk before they get on.

Off topic a bit would you also say that you can only eat food that was bought on the train?
 
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I've lost count of the number of battles we've had with passengers who believe they can drink alcohol on rail replacement coaches because "It's replacing the train and we can drink on the train". Generally the situation is any open containers are finished off before they board and any unopened containers go underneath (or in the fridge if it's a more luxury coach) and they get them back at the destination. Not sure how that will work with the move to having more low floor service buses on rail replacement with no separate luggage storage.

I did once get it in the neck from a train conductor when an inbound coach driver had apparently told passengers that they would be able to drink the contents of the luggage hold on the train. They alighted and opened their cans while walking along the platform, but was now after 9pm and it was a dry train. They apparently argued with the conductor that "The coach driver said we could drink on the train"!
 

Butts

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Unfortunately, many people under the influence on trains will be so because they consumed it before boarding. I would say 99% of the times I have been "under the influence" on a train was because I was on the way home from somewhere where I had been drinking rather than doing so on board.

I have certainly been under the influence when travelling 1st Class from London to Edinburgh with a crew who believed in "regular replenishment" of the Complimentary Scotch.

It's fine until I get off (or fall out of the carriage) at Waverley and have to find my Falkirk connecting train.

Seriously after five or six miniatures that is an achievement in itself.

Fear those days may be consigned to history with LNER's parsimonious "table service"
 

rangersac

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That sounds so simple, but what about when your train home is over 2 hours and has no trolley services. What do you do, I know what I do it's buy my drink and carry it on board. The problems then start at about an hour into the trip and all of the drunks get on and all of the volume goes up.

Most of the time it's not people drinking on trains that cause the problems it the ones that are drunk before they get on.

Off topic a bit would you also say that you can only eat food that was bought on the train?

I think it's fair to say that eating on a train, even when it's done so excessively doesn't cause rowdy and/ or anti social behaviour in the way that the consumption of alcohol does. OK, people leaving uneaten food or food packaging everywhere is an issue, but this is a problem regardless of whether it's bought on a train or not. Plus, plenty of folk have dietary issues or choices which are difficult to cater for when you have limited space allocated for catering so that needs to be taken into account.
 

sannox

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That sounds so simple, but what about when your train home is over 2 hours and has no trolley services. What do you do, I know what I do it's buy my drink and carry it on board. The problems then start at about an hour into the trip and all of the drunks get on and all of the volume goes up.

Most of the time it's not people drinking on trains that cause the problems it the ones that are drunk before they get on.

Off topic a bit would you also say that you can only eat food that was bought on the train?

There is going to be 'losers' and if your train is 2hrs with no trolley then it would be no booze. Some folk can handle a can of beer on a train journey and cause no issues, I've had a few beers with no issues, but unfortunately those who can't spoil it for the rest of us.

I have to say I think there is a strong correlation between those boozing on trains and trouble on said trains.
 

duncanp

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Eurostar's alcohol policy is "Typically, we limit consumption on board to: 4 bottles / cans of beer or 1 bottle of wine per person. No large bottles of spirits."

It doesn't say whether this applies to alcohol purchased on the train, or your own alcohol that you have brought on board.

Once, when travelling from London to Paris, I was quizzed at security about the two mini bottles of red wine that I had puchased in the M&S at St Pancras.

In the United States, Amtrak's policy is "..Alcoholic beverages will be served on board trains in most Dining, Lounge, and Cafe Cars. You may also bring your own alcohol on board, though it may only be consumed in Sleeping Car accommodations..." They don't want people having late night parties on long distance overnight trains.

Back in the UK, I think that the policy of only being allowed to consume alcohol purchased on board is the best compromise. I do think though that if the journey time of the train is more than three hours, TOCs should make an effort to provide appropriate catering, maybe with alcohol only served at certain times of day, as happens in first class on Avanti West Coast.

People should also be allowed to carry alcohol that they have purchased before boarding on to the train, but in sealed containers that are kept well out of sight.
 

yorksrob

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There is going to be 'losers' and if your train is 2hrs with no trolley then it would be no booze. Some folk can handle a can of beer on a train journey and cause no issues, I've had a few beers with no issues, but unfortunately those who can't spoil it for the rest of us.

I have to say I think there is a strong correlation between those boozing on trains and trouble on said trains.

I have to disagree on both points to that one. I have no intention of supporting a policy where I end up being the 'loser'.

If there is a correlation with trouble on trains, it seems to be more with large groups of party-goers of one sort or another in my experience.

Eurostar's alcohol policy is "Typically, we limit consumption on board to: 4 bottles / cans of beer or 1 bottle of wine per person. No large bottles of spirits."

It doesn't say whether this applies to alcohol purchased on the train, or your own alcohol that you have brought on board.

Once, when travelling from London to Paris, I was quizzed at security about the two mini bottles of red wine that I had puchased in the M&S at St Pancras.

In the United States, Amtrak's policy is "..Alcoholic beverages will be served on board trains in most Dining, Lounge, and Cafe Cars. You may also bring your own alcohol on board, though it may only be consumed in Sleeping Car accommodations..." They don't want people having late night parties on long distance overnight trains.

Back in the UK, I think that the policy of only being allowed to consume alcohol purchased on board is the best compromise. I do think though that if the journey time of the train is more than three hours, TOCs should make an effort to provide appropriate catering, maybe with alcohol only served at certain times of day, as happens in first class on Avanti West Coast.

People should also be allowed to carry alcohol that they have purchased before boarding on to the train, but in sealed containers that are kept well out of sight.

Actually, Eurostar's policy seems like a good compromise to me.
 

Purple Orange

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Eurostar's alcohol policy is "Typically, we limit consumption on board to: 4 bottles / cans of beer or 1 bottle of wine per person. No large bottles of spirits."

It doesn't say whether this applies to alcohol purchased on the train, or your own alcohol that you have brought on board.

Once, when travelling from London to Paris, I was quizzed at security about the two mini bottles of red wine that I had puchased in the M&S at St Pancras.

In the United States, Amtrak's policy is "..Alcoholic beverages will be served on board trains in most Dining, Lounge, and Cafe Cars. You may also bring your own alcohol on board, though it may only be consumed in Sleeping Car accommodations..." They don't want people having late night parties on long distance overnight trains.

Back in the UK, I think that the policy of only being allowed to consume alcohol purchased on board is the best compromise. I do think though that if the journey time of the train is more than three hours, TOCs should make an effort to provide appropriate catering, maybe with alcohol only served at certain times of day, as happens in first class on Avanti West Coast.

People should also be allowed to carry alcohol that they have purchased before boarding on to the train, but in sealed containers that are kept well out of sight.

The trouble with making a decision based on journey time (3 hours) is that it splits the catering operations up for a TOC. If we are talking about the on-board shop, it is far easier to have a standard product range than to pick and choose based on how far the train is travelling. Take the London-Birmingham services as an example. 1 tph will have alcohol sold on-board because it continues to Scotland, while the other two would not because they terminate in the West Midlands. Or if a unit is doing a Birmingham/Manchester to London service then at Euston it needs to be prepared for doing a stretch to Glasgow, thus requiring a bigger stock rotation. This scenario can be applied to LNER, GWR, TPE too.
 

duncanp

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The trouble with making a decision based on journey time (3 hours) is that it splits the catering operations up for a TOC. If we are talking about the on-board shop, it is far easier to have a standard product range than to pick and choose based on how far the train is travelling. Take the London-Birmingham services as an example. 1 tph will have alcohol sold on-board because it continues to Scotland, while the other two would not because they terminate in the West Midlands. Or if a unit is doing a Birmingham/Manchester to London service then at Euston it needs to be prepared for doing a stretch to Glasgow, thus requiring a bigger stock rotation. This scenario can be applied to LNER, GWR, TPE too.

Point taken, but maybe alcohol should only be served at certain times of day as happens in Avanti West Coast 1st class.

Although that would probably create as many problems as it solves, as there would always be people who are not happy about where you draw the line.

Perhaps trains should be marked in timetables showing what type of catering is provided - this certainly used to happen, but I am not sure about the current situation.
 

Purple Orange

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Point taken, but maybe alcohol should only be served at certain times of day as happens in Avanti West Coast 1st class.

Although that would probably create as many problems as it solves, as there would always be people who are not happy about where you draw the line.

Perhaps trains should be marked in timetables showing what type of catering is provided - this certainly used to happen, but I am not sure about the current situation.

I can’t help but think that if this is a measure to reduce anti-social behaviour, banning the sale of alcohol from the on-board shop or catering trolley is not going to resolve it. We are essentially talking about groups of people going for a night out or travelling a long distance earlier in the day. Therefore stopping BYO will help, a little, but not the whole problem.
 

Bletchleyite

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I have certainly been under the influence when travelling 1st Class from London to Edinburgh with a crew who believed in "regular replenishment" of the Complimentary Scotch.

It's fine until I get off (or fall out of the carriage) at Waverley and have to find my Falkirk connecting train.

Seriously after five or six miniatures that is an achievement in itself.

Fear those days may be consigned to history with LNER's parsimonious "table service"

Yeah, in VTEC days I certainly found them to be generous - "sure you don't want another one?"

Actually, Eurostar's policy seems like a good compromise to me.

Though it's a bit of an issue if you want to take some home.

They can enforce it, though, due to the security check. TOCs couldn't. No point (I almost typed "no pint" there) having rules you can't enforce.
 

yorksrob

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Yeah, in VTEC days I certainly found them to be generous - "sure you don't want another one?"



Though it's a bit of an issue if you want to take some home.

They can enforce it, though, due to the security check. TOCs couldn't. No point (I almost typed "no pint" there) having rules you can't enforce.

Best to leave the rules as they are in that case IMO.
 

Doctor Fegg

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That said, some TOC's have decent offerings:

GW - St Austell Brewery

Lucky beer drinkers. You'd have thought that the TOC that serves Somerset, Devon, Herefordshire and Gloucestershire might serve some decent cider, but unfortunately it's all fizzy rubbish (either Wrongbow or Thatchers Gold, I forget which).
 

Bletchleyite

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Lucky beer drinkers. You'd have thought that the TOC that serves Somerset, Devon, Herefordshire and Gloucestershire might serve some decent cider, but unfortunately it's all fizzy rubbish (either Wrongbow or Thatchers Gold, I forget which).

I seem to recall that Virgin's commissioned "Tilting Cider" was quite nice.

Some TOCs seem to realise that people won't begrudge paying a lot for a genuinely premium product, but do object to pub prices for a warm can of Strongbow.
 

yorksrob

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Lucky beer drinkers. You'd have thought that the TOC that serves Somerset, Devon, Herefordshire and Gloucestershire might serve some decent cider, but unfortunately it's all fizzy rubbish (either Wrongbow or Thatchers Gold, I forget which).

Alas, most TOC's beer selections seem to be more dissappointing !

My knowledge of ciders is limited, although I notice that pubs that typically don't have any decent cask beer, will often have fridges full of bottles of cider, yet not a single bottled ale.
 

Bletchleyite

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My knowledge of ciders is limited, although I notice that pubs that typically don't have any decent cask beer, will often have fridges full of bottles of cider, yet not a single bottled ale.

That's more pubs aimed at, shall we say, the chavvier clientelle, who aren't interested in a fancy bottled ale but will drink Magners because they think it's posh.
 

Purple Orange

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Alas, most TOC's beer selections seem to be more dissappointing !

My knowledge of ciders is limited, although I notice that pubs that typically don't have any decent cask beer, will often have fridges full of bottles of cider, yet not a single bottled ale.

It’s hit and miss. TPE sold Cloudwater, who make some fantastic beers. I don’t know if they still do sell it, and even at roughly 3% it was far superior to a can of Stella or Carling! I also quite liked the ale Virgin used to sell - I think it was Bollington, so another small brewery. Not sure what Avanti sell these days.
 

yorksrob

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That's more pubs aimed at, shall we say, the chavvier clientelle, who aren't interested in a fancy bottled ale but will drink Magners because they think it's posh.

I have this gripe with a rugby club I visit regularly. Would it kill them to get a couple of crates of Timothy Taylor in !

It’s hit and miss. TPE sold Cloudwater, who make some fantastic beers. I don’t know if they still do sell it, and even at roughly 3% it was far superior to a can of Stella or Carling! I also quite liked the ale Virgin used to sell - I think it was Bollington, so another small brewery. Not sure what Avanti sell these days.

That's interesting. I've only ever bought cups of tea from TPE's trolley so I've never tried it. 3% is generally a bit weak for my taste though. I find 4 - 4.5% about optimum.
 

Purple Orange

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I have this gripe with a rugby club I visit regularly. Would it kill them to get a couple of crates of Timothy Taylor in !



That's interesting. I've only ever bought cups of tea from TPE's trolley so I've never tried it. 3% is generally a bit weak for my taste though. I find 4 - 4.5% about optimum.

I think it’s a little less than 3% in fact, a smaller can and a little more expensive. However, it’s taste is far better than the other options. I’d say it’s worth trying.
 

Wynd

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Yeah, in VTEC days I certainly found them to be generous - "sure you don't want another one?"

Pah! 6 miniatures? Amateurs! KGX - ABZ and you can at least double that!

Seriously tho, the LNER service has been stripped back. It happened with the Azuma introduction. Even when the 125's went, the very generous top up service remained on the 225's.

Banning all alcohol consumption is yet another example where the rest of us in Scotland have to pay for the behavior of the Fitba gypes in the central belt ruining it.
 

Doctor Fegg

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My knowledge of ciders is limited, although I notice that pubs that typically don't have any decent cask beer, will often have fridges full of bottles of cider, yet not a single bottled ale.

They're generally terrible ciders though - glorified alcopops like Krapparberg. I've honestly only seen two or three pubs in Britain that have decent cider but no good beer, and they've tended to be rough places in Somerset!
 
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