Scotrail Full Alcohol Ban

[Zamracene749]

So, is the issue drunks on trains or drinking on trains? Cos there is a hell of a difference. I understand that some trainspotters feel uncomfortable around drunken louts, tbf, I'm the same, but as my username implies I seriously enjoy a drink whilst I'm travelling. It enhances the experience for me. Blanket bans are a hammer to crack a nut. I've also had bad experiences on trains with squaddies, sports fans and in one disgusting occasion, a group of trainee schoolteachers. Let's ban everyone, it's public transport? EDIT- actually, if we are going to ban folk that are annoying other passengers, can we start with people listening to crap (apple) earphones that are loud enough to hear from 8 seats away? And gob****es on mobile phones? And people that eat crisps with their mouths open? And people that start sentences with and?

 

[bussikuski179]

I think drinking alcohol on trains should be banned, except if the drink was sold on the train. So a whiskey in the Club Car on the sleeper is fine, but drinking a beer you bought elsewhere isn’t, like the system in Finland is. On trains with restaurant cars, they sell drinks, infact most of what they actually sell is beer. There are quite a few drunks, but they are only confined to that car of the train. On trains with only a trolley, I believe they still sell drinks, but not nearly as many, 1 per person or something similar. I think that’s a good system, people who want a drink can get a drink, people who want peace and quiet can... maybe get it, though people who aren’t drunk can be very loud too.

 

[yorkie]

....This forum is mostly trainspotters. ..

It certainly isn't! There are some, admittedly, but very few.

There are two issues which you are conflating.

The original poster questions whether this could, or should, be made permanent. They are not questioning the current situation.

Long term, it makes little sense to do this on long distance services. Of course the RMT will want that. And of course people will provide examples of badly behaved drunks who apparently wouldn't be rowdy if drinking on the train was forbidden.

The reality is that drunks still misbehave while not actually drinking, and that this isn't going to be a long term change (no matter how much the out if touch RMT huff and puff)

 

[Bletchleyite]

the idea that the Caledonian Sleeper passengers are somehow "better" than the plebs on daytime services and therefore it's acceptable for the Lords and Ladies to drink

The CS, other than the seated coach, is different, though, it's more like a hotel on wheels, and you can say to someone who's had a whisky too many in the lounge car that it's time for bed.

 

[Purple Orange]

Don't you think we have better things to be worrying about than *how we look* to the small number of tourists venturing here during a pandemic?

This forum is mostly trainspotters, People who consider train journeys to be a romanticised experience. Most of them are from outside of Scotland. To them a Scottish train journey is the experience of sipping a whisky in first class of an "Inter7City" while weaving through the Highlands. They'll probably know the type and number of the engine too. It's not how people in Scotland use the railway.

To most people in Scotland, using the train is an endurance event. It's getting to work, going home at night, going to see friends. They're far less likely to be sipping whisky on the Caledonian Sleeper or the "Inter7City" and far more likely to be surrounded by drunken kids downing cheap cider on the Fife Circle. How Scotland looks to random trainspotters and the vanishingly few tourists who visit during a pandemic doesn't come into the equation.

If you think that alcohol is somehow integral to Scotland's railways then use an example that's actually relevant to people who actually use trains in Scotland.

I agree with what you’re saying there, especially the difference between the realities of using the railways and the romanticised version in the heads of trainspotters. But. On a long distance journey, if there is provision for the sale of food and drink, it really should also include the sale of wine & beer. Keep the stock limited and no more than one drink per transaction (XC used to do 3 bottles of Ale for £10, with one bottle costing £3.50. It was inviting the bulk purchase). On commuter services, then obviously no alcohol should be sold.

It certainly isn't! There are some, admittedly, but very few.

I think it depends on who you are asking. To you a trainspotter may be someone who specifically stands out in the cold writing numbers in a book, but to anyone who has no interest in joining a railway forum, we might all be considered to be trainspotters. I see how it can be distinguished on here, with the trainspotter population, people who work in the industry and then there are people who are stakeholders but purely from a passenger perspective, among others.

 

[yorkie]

...but to anyone who has no interest in joining a railway forum, we might all be considered to be trainspotters....

ah you're even trying to classify people who have an interest in railways (and who may not even be interested in trains!) as train spotters?

This is clearly nonsensical, and by that logic you may as well claim members of SABRE are car spotters!

Any spotters would find find WNXX to be much more relevant to their requirements than this forum; I don't doubt we have some spotters here, but it's very much the minority.

I do find it amusing how we have some people arguing on one hand that 'spotters' will be against an alcohol ban while some make the opposite argument. The entire argument is utterly flawed.

 

[Llanigraham]

A ban on carrying would be awkward for people who shop by train and for tourists who have purchased whisky to take home.

As long as the bottle/can is inside and remains in a shopping bag or case, where is the problem?
The same applies in Alcohol Control Areas in towns and that doesn't seem to cause a problem.

 

[route101]

I can definitely see catering vanishing on some routes. The West Highland always makes quite a good intake, however the Glasgow - Carlisle service, the trolley would be lucky if they sold anything at all.

The Glasgow to Carlisle catering was a trial and has been stopped. The problem is on Friday nights and all day Saturday with groups who drink on train going into town.

 

[sdrennan]

My view is you should not be allowed to open items brought onto the train, but you can buy from Buffet or be served at seat. (Staff can always say no more)

And people must be able to carry sealed on board as they may be going home from shopping. I have a friend who was given a bottle of whisky as a gift at work. He has a season ticket so needs to take it on the train home!!!

 

[Royston Vasey]

Barbarism!

 

[Purple Orange]

ah you're even trying to classify people who have an interest in railways (and who may not even be interested in trains!) as train spotters?

This is clearly nonsensical, and by that logic you may as well claim members of SABRE are car spotters!

Any spotters would find find WNXX to be much more relevant to their requirements than this forum; I don't doubt we have some spotters here, but it's very much the minority.

I do find it amusing how we have some people arguing on one hand that 'spotters' will be against an alcohol ban while some make the opposite argument. The entire argument is utterly flawed.

No. I’m highlighting how to the outside world, people with zero interest in the railways may consider anyone who joins a railway forum to be a trainspotter, regardless of how much of a broadbrush sweep that might be.

Perhaps read the last sentence of my previous post too?

I see how it can be distinguished on here, with the trainspotter population, people who work in the industry and then there are people who are stakeholders but purely from a passenger perspective, among others.​

The Glasgow to Carlisle catering was a trial and has been stopped. The problem is on Friday nights and all day Saturday with groups who drink on train going into town.

Generally the last train home. Every night it is a load of people tanked up. There doesn’t need to be an6 drinking going on, but it is loud, packed and sometimes anti-social behaviour, with at least some behaviour that could be described as ‘passionate’ at best!

 

[Norther Monkey]

A full ban on the consumption of alcohol on trains would have my full support.

I spent three years travelling weekly between Scotland and London for work. Far, far too often journeys, particularly on Fridays, (which were during the day) were spoilt by idiotic drunken behaviour. It was universally unpleasant and often felt threatening.

The late evening alcohol ban on Scotrail, whilst not eradicating the issue, has significantly improved the atmosphere on board overall.

Rail staff shouldn't be subject to such an unpleasant and threatening environment.

 

[jumble]

Nor indeed has it stopped people drinking on what are almost all DOO services with no on board staff at all.

Or indeed having vodka in a lemonade bottle
I have to say that overt drinking on TFL is very rare in my experience and not particularly common even late at night

 

[[.n]]

Scotland seemingly doesn't care how it looks. Hotels are already banned from serving residents the national drink with or after their evening meal.

What no Irn-Bru

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or indeed having vodka in a lemonade bottle
I have to say that overt drinking on TFL is very rare in my experience and not particularly common even late at night

To some extent, driving it underground has helped, because if people are more subtle about it (e.g. adding vodka to your 500ml Coke) you don't end up with half full beer cans rolling round buses like you used to, for example.

I'm in support of banning consumption on urban services, there's really no need for it. By contrast, a glass of wine or two on a 3 hour InterCity journey is a civilising effect, and what is the CS or Riviera lounge car without a nightcap?

The idea that you can only consume what you've bought on board doesn't seem a bad one, to be honest. That effectively deals with it.

 

[185143]

To some extent, driving it underground has helped, because if people are more subtle about it (e.g. adding vodka to your 500ml Coke) you don't end up with half full beer cans rolling round buses like you used to, for example.

I'm in support of banning consumption on urban services, there's really no need for it. By contrast, a glass of wine or two on a 3 hour InterCity journey is a civilising effect, and what is the CS or Riviera lounge car without a nightcap?

The idea that you can only consume what you've bought on board doesn't seem a bad one, to be honest.

I hope that was deliberate!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I hope that was deliberate!

Unfortunately not

 

[yorkie]

I see how it can be distinguished on here, with the trainspotter population, people who work in the industry and then there are people who are stakeholders but purely from a passenger perspective, among others.

I did read it. I'm not sure what there is to say though. If the suggestion is that people outside the industry lump all of those into the category of spotters then I disagree, at least not in any meaningful numbers.

 

[philosopher]

I agree with what you’re saying there, especially the difference between the realities of using the railways and the romanticised version in the heads of trainspotters. But. On a long distance journey, if there is provision for the sale of food and drink, it really should also include the sale of wine & beer. Keep the stock limited and no more than one drink per transaction (XC used to do 3 bottles of Ale for £10, with one bottle costing £3.50. It was inviting the bulk purchase). On commuter services, then obviously no alcohol should be sold.

Being able to buy alcoholic beverages from a trolley or buffet is one of the joys of train travel. It is one thing that on a train, that for obvious reasons can’t be done if you are driving.

In terms of drunkness on trains, I have rarely found it to be too much of a problem and when it has been an issue, the passengers have generally been drunk even before boarding. In these cases the sale of alcohol on board would not make too much different to their behaviour. I do admit I tend not use late evening Friday trains though.

 

[Purple Orange]

Being able to buy alcoholic beverages from a trolley or buffet is one of the joys of train travel. It is one thing that on a train, that for obvious reasons can’t be done if you are driving.

In terms of drunkness on trains, I have rarely found it to be too much of a problem and when it has been an issue, the passengers have generally been drunk even before boarding. In these cases the sale of alcohol on board would not make too much different to their behaviour. I do admit I tend not use late evening Friday trains though.

And this begs the questions as to why people who board a train drunk should mean that people who just fancy a glass of something on their journey should be denied that pleasure.

I did read it. I'm not sure what there is to say though. If the suggestion is that people outside the industry lump all of those into the category of spotters then I disagree, at least not in any meaningful numbers.

It’s not a major thing. All I was saying that some people will make that connection, whether they are right or wrong is irrelevant to the fact that some people will just generalise.

 

[geoffk]

I think drinking alcohol on trains should be banned, except if the drink was sold on the train. So a whiskey in the Club Car on the sleeper is fine, but drinking a beer you bought elsewhere isn’t, like the system in Finland is. On trains with restaurant cars, they sell drinks, infact most of what they actually sell is beer. There are quite a few drunks, but they are only confined to that car of the train. On trains with only a trolley, I believe they still sell drinks, but not nearly as many, 1 per person or something similar. I think that’s a good system, people who want a drink can get a drink, people who want peace and quiet can... maybe get it, though people who aren’t drunk can be very loud too.

I assume you would exclude steam specials and other charters, i.e. anything that's not "public transport".

 

[Norther Monkey]

Being able to buy alcoholic beverages from a trolley or buffet is one of the joys of train travel. It is one thing that on a train, that for obvious reasons can’t be done if you are driving.

In terms of drunkness on trains, I have rarely found it to be too much of a problem and when it has been an issue, the passengers have generally been drunk even before boarding. In these cases the sale of alcohol on board would not make too much different to their behaviour. I do admit I tend not use late evening Friday trains though.

When I was commuting Scotland to London many groups (often stag or hen parties) weren't drunk before boarding. They'd bring a carry out with them and get drunk during the journey.
In my experience those that board drunk and then, don't or can't drink on board, are less bother, sleep or unconsciousness often kicks in fairly quickly.

I often enjoy a couple of beers or wines on long journeys but would happily give this up if it helped significantly reduce anti social drunken behaviour on trains.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm against banning alcohol on trains generally. I have no problem with the local police being called to drag trouble makers off where appropriate. Perhaps the BTP should have more recourse to local law enforcement, being as thinly stretched as they are.

 

[philthetube]

I suspect that 90% of people would be either in favour of banning alcohol or neutral in their opinion, We are talking about the few disrupting the journeys of the majority, and the majority of that majority probably never drink on trains anyway.

The inconvenience those who like a glass of wine with their meal is nothing compared to the problems which some people suffer through alcohol on trains.

Ban it

 

[Purple Orange]

How much of a problem is it really? I rarely see problems on the train. Ban it after 9pm for instance, or ban drinking booze you have brought yourself, just like it’s not allowed in pubs! If you want a drink on a train, you have to buy it on the train. If the train service doesn’t sell booze, then it’s not allowed (e.g. a commuter train).

 

[Bletchleyite]

How much of a problem is it really? I rarely see problems on the train. Ban it after 9pm for instance, or ban drinking booze you have brought yourself, just like it’s not allowed in pubs! If you want a drink on a train, you have to buy it on the train. If the train service doesn’t sell booze, then it’s not allowed (e.g. a commuter train).

I do tend towards the idea that that's the best compromise - you have much more control that way.

Indeed, the usual approach is that if it can be sold somewhere you can't bring your own (e.g. in youth hostels, they either sell it and you can't bring your own, or they don't sell it and you can). I think the situation where you can bring or buy is only the case on the railway because it's exempt from licensing laws.

 

[Norther Monkey]

I'm against banning alcohol on trains generally. I have no problem with the local police being called to drag trouble makers off where appropriate. Perhaps the BTP should have more recourse to local law enforcement, being as thinly stretched as they are.

If resources were available that would be my preferred option too. However, practically BTP appear too thinly stretched to attend and deal with situations quickly. Plus dealing with incidents would likely cause further disruption.

In any case some of the annoying behaviour probably falls short of being an offence (noise, shouting etc.) it simply makes journeys for many thoroughly unpleasant.

When I go to a pub I expect people to be under the influence, I don't think I should have to suffer it on trains.

How much of a problem is it really? I rarely see problems on the train. Ban it after 9pm for instance, or ban drinking booze you have brought yourself, just like it’s not allowed in pubs! If you want a drink on a train, you have to buy it on the train. If the train service doesn’t sell booze, then it’s not allowed (e.g. a commuter train).

On the ECML Fridays, particularly in summer, were often horrendous.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When I go to a pub I expect people to be under the influence, I don't think I should have to suffer it on trains.

Unfortunately, many people under the influence on trains will be so because they consumed it before boarding. I would say 99% of the times I have been "under the influence" on a train was because I was on the way home from somewhere where I had been drinking rather than doing so on board.

 

[Purple Orange]

I do tend towards the idea that that's the best compromise - you have much more control that way.

Indeed, the usual approach is that if it can be sold somewhere you can't bring your own (e.g. in youth hostels, they either sell it and you can't bring your own, or they don't sell it and you can). I think the situation where you can bring or buy is only the case on the railway because it's exempt from licensing laws.

Exactly. And if there is anti social behaviour, then the passenger(s) should expect a conversation with BTP.

That said, it isn’t the sale of alcohol on a train that is the issue but groups being loud and obnoxious. This goes beyond alcohol consumption on a train and it is a fact of life that people who deal with the public will encounter such cases, whether it is a bus driver, a nurse, doctor, fast food worker or a train conductor. It doesn’t make it right, but as I see it, banning the sale of alcohol on a train will not resolve the issue that takes place relatively infrequently.

 

[sannox]

When I was commuting Scotland to London many groups (often stag or hen parties) weren't drunk before boarding. They'd bring a carry out with them and get drunk during the journey.
In my experience those that board drunk and then, don't or can't drink on board, are less bother, sleep or unconsciousness often kicks in fairly quickly.

I often enjoy a couple of beers or wines on long journeys but would happily give this up if it helped significantly reduce anti social drunken behaviour on trains.

This is my experience. Banning the carryout would help massively- only alcohol bought on board can be consumed on board!