ScotRail HST derailment at Dalwhinnie (10/04/2021)

[Stathern Jc]

Isn't the trailing crossover seen on the diagram the one at Dalnachardoch?
I'm sure the crossover at the South end of Dalwhinnie is facing. We see part of a set of facing points on the photo at post 19 and it can also be seen on the diagram on "tracksy.uk".
https://traksy.uk/live/M+59+DALWHIN
Presume this will primarily be used to allow access to the siding. Looking at services on RTT for last Thursday as an example it doesn't look as if any stopping trains are booked move across to Platform 1 for passenger convenience, though I could be mistaken.

 

[BRX]

So was it travelling southbound, was supposed to go via platform 1, points at N end of station failed to move (frozen?), front PC and first 4 1/2 carriages carried on through platform 2, points moved under the rear of the train sending last bogie of last coach + rear power car off through platfrom 1...all the way through the station and beyond?

 

[fgwrich]

Everyone just needs to wait for the RAIB report. It's very clear what happened, the question is why it happened. But all the speculation on here is wrong so best just wait for the proper information.

Sometimes this forum really needs a like button!

 

[mcmad]

So was it travelling southbound, was supposed to go via platform 1, points at N end of station failed to move (frozen?), front PC and first 4 1/2 carriages carried on through platform 2, points moved under the rear of the train sending last bogie of last coach + rear power car off through platfrom 1...all the way through the station and beyond?

Nope. The crossover is South of the station, at the North of the station is a turnout where the double track goes back into single track.

Train was heading South on the Up and should have continued South on the Up but has been diverted for reason as yet publically unconfirmed onto the down line until the last coach and rear powercar which have tried to take the correct route.

 

[MadMac]

And there is no way of getting from the down line to the up line, except by a reversal over the trailing crossover. Very strange.

Very strange indeed. This will be one of the more interesting reports.....

 

[MacCookie]

Looking at services on RTT for last Thursday as an example it doesn't look as if any stopping trains are booked move across to Platform 1 for passenger convenience, though I could be mistaken.

1H07 SX 08:35 Edinburgh to Inverness is booked to use Platform 1

Realtime Trains - 1H07 0835 Edinburgh to Inverness

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Generally speaking Down trains will use the Up platform if they're not crossing something. Where there are Down trains in the current timetable using the Down platform, I would expect that in the full timetable they would ordinarily be crossing an Up train.

Cheers,
Ewan

 

[InvHst]

1H07 SX 08:35 Edinburgh to Inverness is booked to use Platform 1

Realtime Trains - 1H07 0835 Edinburgh to Inverness

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Generally speaking Down trains will use the Up platform if they're not crossing something. Where there are Down trains in the current timetable using the Down platform, I would expect that in the full timetable they would ordinarily be crossing an Up train.

Cheers,
Ewan

1h07 hasn't used platform 1 in well i can't remember when it last did it all north trains heading for Kingussie use platform 2 unless their is a wheelchair user requiring off a service then the crossover south of the station is utilised for that exact reason so they can safely exit the station. As it has been said though best to wait for the raib report they know what they are doing and we will find out what the cause is in time

 

[47271]

Isn't the trailing crossover seen on the diagram the one at Dalnachardoch?
I'm sure the crossover at the South end of Dalwhinnie is facing. We see part of a set of facing points on the photo at post 12,971 and it can also be seen on the diagram on "tracksy.uk".
https://traksy.uk/live/M+59+DALWHIN
Presume this will primarily be used to allow access to the siding. Looking at services on RTT for last Thursday as an example it doesn't look as if any stopping trains are booked move across to Platform 1 for passenger convenience, though I could be mistaken.

You're quite right on the crossover, which all goes to show what a load of rubbish the local gossip from someone's brother who works for Network Rail or whatever and passed on to me has proved to be! Typical Speyside.

 

[Steddenm]

Here's a theory... maybe the driver had placed the powercar lights to red for danger as it was in the middle of the night? Are both ends of the train red?

 

[najaB]

Here's a theory... maybe the driver had placed the powercar lights to red for danger as it was in the middle of the night? Are both ends of the train red?

Yes, both ends would have been at red at the point the picture was taken. But if you're suggesting that the train was travelling north then it has been confirmed that it was travelling south. Plus, had it derailed in the direction of travel the outcome would have been a lot worse than a power car and trailer partially in the dirt.

 

[Jim]

Hopefully the RAIB report will not link anything to do with 5 car set compared to 4 car.

Does anyone think there will be repairs needed on the derailed elements? Sounds like it wasn't going at speed. Not sure what experiences folk have had with this in the yard.

Why an earth would the length of the train make a difference?

It would have still derailed?

 

[John Bishop]

You're quite right on the crossover, which all goes to show what a load of rubbish the local gossip from someone's brother who works for Network Rail or whatever and passed on to me has proved to be! Typical Speyside.

For the avoidance of doubt, the crossover is facing in the UP direction which was the direction of travel for the incident HST under discussion here.

The HST was supposed to be traveling on the UP line that night.

 

[scotraildriver]

OK I'll clear this up. This train was supposed to travel in the up direction towards Perth on the up line like any normal service train would do. For some reason it went through the crossover when the signals and points were showing normal. We have been fortunate indeed this wasn't a service train travelling at 70mph line speed.

 

[matchmaker]

You're quite right on the crossover, which all goes to show what a load of rubbish the local gossip from someone's brother who works for Network Rail or whatever and passed on to me has proved to be! Typical Speyside.

My mistake in the wording. As the train was (mostly...) on the down line, the facing crossover would have been trailing to it!

 

[Cheshire Scot]

OK I'll clear this up. This train was supposed to travel in the up direction towards Perth on the up line like any normal service train would do. For some reason it went through the crossover when the signals and points were showing normal. We have been fortunate indeed this wasn't a service train travelling at 70mph line speed.

It has been suggested by an industry contact it had been crossing to the down line (through the crossover) due to single line working.

 

[najaB]

It has been suggested by an industry contact it had been crossing to the down line (through the crossover) due to single line working.

That can be easily confirmed by anyone with access to the weekly operation notice if it was due to planned work.

 

[Highlandspring]

It has been suggested by an industry contact it had been crossing to the down line (through the crossover) due to single line working.

Nope.

 

[BRX]

There are some photos here -

https://twitter.com/TimonFrancis/status/1381620170909753346

 

[najaB]

There are some photos here -

https://twitter.com/TimonFrancis/status/1381620170909753346

Are they removing the crossover?! If so, is it just temporary until they get new turnouts made?

 

[mcmad]

Are they removing the crossover?! If so, is it just temporary until they get new turnouts made?

Yes. Still to be decided what any reinstatement may look like

 

[MadMac]

Yes. Still to be decided what any reinstatement may look like

The one that's been lifted out has classic "wheels running on them" damage on the timbers.

 

[najaB]

Yes. Still to be decided what any reinstatement may look like

Hope this doesn't result in flexibility being removed from the network.

 

[47271]

Hope this doesn't result in flexibility being removed from the network.

I know that we're going off topic a bit here, but is it not the case that this crossover (now that we've established that it's facing) allows northbound freight to be looped at Dalwhinnie? I've been on an overtaking train there on at least one occasion, so I should've known that all along.

If it's removed then, yes, the route will become less flexible.

Anyway, at least we've established the circumstances if not the cause of the derailment. The thread wasn't going to give up on that until someone genuinely in the know satisfied its curiosity!

 

[hexagon789]

I know that we're going off topic a bit here, but is it not the case that this crossover (now that we've established that it's facing) allows northbound freight to be looped at Dalwhinnie? I've been on an overtaking train there on at least one occasion, so I should've known that all along.

If it's removed then, yes, the route will become less flexible.

Anyway, at least we've established the circumstances if not the cause of the derailment. The thread wasn't going to give up on that until someone genuinely in the know satisfied its curiosity!

I understood Network Rail plain lined it to get the line open again more quickly and will be coming back in to reinstate the crossover later on.

 

[pdeaves]

I understood Network Rail plain lined it to get the line open again more quickly and will be coming back in to reinstate the crossover later on.

That's quite likely. The same happened at Eastleigh.

 

[hexagon789]

That's quite likely. The same happened at Eastleigh.

Well then, I think that demonstrates the likelihood that that is exactly what will happen at Dalwhinnie rather than getting rid of the crossover altogether as suggested

 

[BRX]

From what I can gather, it's the associated signalling that is usually the expensive/complicated bit of changing track layouts, rather than the physical laying of track itself.

 

[InOban]

Line reopens tomorrow.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

From what I can gather, it's the associated signalling that is usually the expensive/complicated bit of changing track layouts, rather than the physical laying of track itself.

Probably much less so for a mechanical location such as Dalwhinnie, and if in due course it is a like for like (or very similar) replacement hopefully just a case of reconnecting the various bits and testing detection, interlocking and other elements which will have been disconnected or modified due to being plain lined.

1h07 hasn't used platform 1 in well i can't remember when it last did it all north trains heading for Kingussie use platform 2 unless their is a wheelchair user requiring off a service then the crossover south of the station is utilised for that exact reason so they can safely exit the station. As it has been said though best to wait for the raib report they know what they are doing and we will find out what the cause is in time

As the bi-di platform 1 is the lesser route on the down home signal (photo on post 78) I would imagine using platform 1 would mean the distant could not be cleared - unless it is a 'splitting distant' which is unlikely as these are very rare. Clearing the distant should be telling the driver he is continuing under clear signals on the 'main' route. Without the distant the driver would be approaching the home signal with caution adding to the running time which would need to be reflected in the timings if it was the booked move which might impact on the pathing further along the line.

 

[High Dyke]

Probably much less so for a mechanical location such as Dalwhinnie, and if in due course it is a like for like (or very similar) replacement hopefully just a case of reconnecting the various bits and testing detection, interlocking and other elements which will have been disconnected or modified due to being plain lined.

Not always the case. I work a mechanical signalled location, where we want a wire adjuster fitting to a semaphore signal. All the equipment is there, having been made redundant from a different signal. However, according to those with better technical understanding, to make the change will require a design to be submitted and a 'new works order, completed.

Having seen the log entry for the train involved in the incident, then I concur with my learned colleagues in Scotland. I look forward to seeing the investigation report.