ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Aictos]

2+5 sets cannot be accommodated at Haymarket depot until the extension to the maintenance shed is completed hence starting with a 2+4.

That might well be the case but when that extension is completed they could lengthen the sets to 2+5 could they not?

 

[najaB]

They havent

I know. Yet somehow we have posters who know what they're like.

 

[BRX]

I know. Yet somehow we have posters who know what they're like.

If for some reason they prove to be significantly different to the GWR ones, then I'll be happy to change my mind. I don't see that as likely though.

 

[TheMuttley]

If for some reason they prove to be significantly different to the GWR ones, then I'll be happy to change my mind. I don't see that as likely though.

Are you referring to the lack of buffet car? If so, it seems the LNER ones might well have one (although not sure whether this is a reliable source)...

The main difference is that VTEC managed to persuade the government that they can fit a buffet counter into their trains, whereas the intention of the Intercity Express Project was to run trains with at seat service only (mostly delivered via a trolley). Prior to VTEC winning the East Coast franchise it was intended that these trains wouldn't have a buffet either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are you referring to the lack of buffet car? If so, it seems the LNER ones might well have one (although not sure whether this is a reliable source)...

That's the plan, unless LNER are changing it.

 

[RLBH]

Absolutely. I know a lot of trains recently have had too many airline seats and not enough tables, but I'd say a balance of about 50/50 is right, and I'm concerned the airline seat is disappearing.

ISTR that market research suggests that about one third of passengers prefer bay seating, one third airlines, and one third don't really care. So 50/50 is probably about right as a target for new stock.

 

[47271]

I'm concerned the airline seat is disappearing.

Fat chance of that on most routes when you can cram in more people with airline seats - this is exactly what's wrong with Standard on GWR HSTs.

I don't especially want to look at the stranger opposite me either but I need adequate space to open my laptop and have a notebook and phone at my side. To me an airline seat is near on useless. Hurrah for the Scotrail refurb.

 

[BRX]

Are you referring to the lack of buffet car? If so, it seems the LNER ones might well have one (although not sure whether this is a reliable source)...

No, it's the underfloor engines, uncomfortable seats, general impression of cheap build quality, lack of 'intercity' type ambience, and hopeless bicycle storage space that I've been unimpressed with on the GWR ones. I know this is all mostly subjective, there's no point trying to argue with those who like them, but my personal feeling is that they are an underwhelming replacement for the HST which is why, like I say, I'll probably start opting for a change in Edinburgh onto a Scotrail train when I make the trip between London and Inverness. For most of my life so far I've nearly always gone for the Chieftain even if the times aren't perfect simply because it's meant that the 8 or 9 hours is spent on a decent train. I don't expect everyone to feel the same of course.

 

[D1009]

No, it's the underfloor engines, uncomfortable seats, general impression of cheap build quality, lack of 'intercity' type ambience, and hopeless bicycle storage space that I've been unimpressed with on the GWR ones. I know this is all mostly subjective, there's no point trying to argue with those who like them, but my personal feeling is that they are an underwhelming replacement for the HST which is why, like I say, I'll probably start opting for a change in Edinburgh onto a Scotrail train when I make the trip between London and Inverness. For most of my life so far I've nearly always gone for the Chieftain even if the times aren't perfect simply because it's meant that the 8 or 9 hours is spent on a decent train. I don't expect everyone to feel the same of course.

Please don't turn this into an IEP slagging off thread, there's enough of it elsewhere on the forum.

 

[BRX]

Please don't turn this into an IEP slagging off thread, there's enough of it elsewhere on the forum.

I'll say no more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As one of our conductors often Announces, Seats are for bums not bags

I'd probably have just said something like that then ignored their continued ranting.

There are some incredibly inconsiderate people on trains. I witnessed this yesterday on a full and standing service (caused by a short formation, caused by a passenger having, er, soiled it and the second unit needing to be removed for cleaning), on which one passenger had a bit of a go at another for knocking him with his rucksack when the one being knocked had about two metres of space to move into (he had already near-refused to move down until told to by a member of staff to allow people to even board), whereas the rucksack-carrying passenger and his kid were squashed into almost no space, and he couldn't have removed it without clouting anyone. I pointed this out to him, and he pulled a face, shut up moaning and didn't say anything again (but didn't move down - if I'd been the rucksack carrying passenger I would have been quite a lot more vocal until he did, but it appeared that being able to lean on a seat to read his book was more important than anyone else being able to board). I got a thanks from the other passenger for that

(I was in a window side priority seat which I'd have offered to them - would have been worth standing for half an hour to rub it in further on someone so inconsiderate - but there didn't actually seem to be any way to get them into it, the train was so crowded)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Please don't turn this into an IEP slagging off thread, there's enough of it elsewhere on the forum.

You can draw your own conclusion on why that is. Personally, I wanted to like them, but (while nicer than Class 22x) I am just unimpressed.

 

[Journeyman]

Fat chance of that on most routes when you can cram in more people with airline seats - this is exactly what's wrong with Standard on GWR HSTs.

I don't especially want to look at the stranger opposite me either but I need adequate space to open my laptop and have a notebook and phone at my side. To me an airline seat is near on useless. Hurrah for the Scotrail refurb.

Agree that Standard in the GWR HST is bloody awful, and I certainly wouldn't advocate that sort of layout. It's possible to design a reasonable amount of space into airline seats, though, and they're not fundamentally bad if done properly.

 

[GrimShady]

Oddly enough I recently had an argument with a really rude Australian couple who had decided to put a giant suitcase on the single airline seat in the first class section of a 170. They thought it was extremely unreasonable of me to expect them to move it, because I wanted to sit there.

I had a similar incident also in first on a 170. I kindly gave up my seat on the 2 table side so an American couple could sit side by side. The bloke on the 2 bay behind that insisted he need the spare seat for his papers! I ended up moving them for him anyway. Interesting journey I must say, you could cut the atmosphere with a knife, everyone in the compartment was aware of it.

Didn't even get a thanks from the Americans either!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agree that Standard in the GWR HST is bloody awful, and I certainly wouldn't advocate that sort of layout. It's possible to design a reasonable amount of space into airline seats, though, and they're not fundamentally bad if done properly.

I wouldn't call it that - I can, being tall and having a long upper leg and long body, sit reasonably comfortably in every seat. That isn't true of a lot of other trains.

I do think it needs more tables, but there's not a lack of space in the airline seating.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I had a similar incident also in first on a 170. I kindly gave up my seat on the 2 table side so an American couple could sit side by side. The bloke on the 2 bay behind that insisted he need the spare seat for his papers! I ended up moving them for him anyway. Interesting journey I must say, you could cut the atmosphere with a knife, everyone in the compartment was aware of it.

Didn't even get a thanks from the Americans either!

"Tell you what, if I get the guard will you show him the second ticket you have bought for that second seat you are occupying?"

 

[GrimShady]

"Tell you what, if I get the guard will you show him the second ticket you have bought for that second seat you are occupying?"

Didn't get that far, I decided for him!

Plus that's another minefield. A ticket doesn't entitle you to a seat.

 

[greyman42]

Once those awful things take over the Highland Chieftain, I reckon I'll definitely move to opting for a change at Edinburgh onto a Scotrail HST, when I make any London-Inverness daytime trips.

You won't be the only one.

 

[jingsmonty]

Surely it would have been better to start off with a uniform fleet of 2+5 for all routes which would have been easier to diagram them plus you wouldn't have the potential issue of a 2+4 set standing in for a 2+5 set then have a number of coaches spare to strengthen the sets to 2+6 as and when needed.

I thought as much myself, but there are issues with stabling/platforms to resolve...for example, of the 4 south platforms (inc Aberdeen) in Inverness, only 2 can take a 5+2 - other 2 can fit a 4+2, but not anything longer. Also, there are a distinct lack of depot stabling points in Inverness for HSTs (the 4+2 training train only just fits into the longest road).

Sure this is something that is being looked at & probably a good reason why the HML is the last of the Inter7City routes to have a full HST service.

 

[jingsmonty]

Looks good , hope theres some airline seating . Not everyone travels in groups !

Couldn't agree more - if I'm travelling on my own, I'll usually go for an airline seat, even if there are completely empty groups of 4 seats at a table. As a taller person, I find it's a bonus not having to worry about accidentally kicking the shins of the passenger across from me!!

 

[kkong]

From what I've seen/heard, there's hardly any, which personally disappoints me. I frequently travel alone and I hate sitting opposite strangers.

The plans showed four individual airline seats in first class. All labelled "priority" but that doesn't stop anyone from reserving them, just like on East Coast.

 

[PG]

Plus that's another minefield. A ticket doesn't entitle you to a seat.

Indeed a ticket doesn't entitle you to a seat... but in order to occupy a seat you need a ticket.

Anyway, to me, this discussion of inconsiderate passengers seems to be going off-topic.

 

[haggishunter]

I don't especially want to look at the stranger opposite me either but I need adequate space to open my laptop and have a notebook and phone at my side. To me an airline seat is near on useless. Hurrah for the Scotrail refurb.

That's something I've really liked about the Inverness based 158s, they have big airline seat back tables with a pull out wire extension that means you can comfortably use a decent sized laptop in them. On the other hand on the 170s its a struggle to fit a coffee and a kitkat on the fold down tables on the airline style seats. Hopefully the HSTs have decent sized tables on the airline seats too, don't mind sitting with strangers at table bays, but with a decent airline seat table that's where I'd go when travelling on my own.

 

[GrimShady]

You won't be the only one.

I think I'll be joining you!

 

[Journeyman]

That's something I've really liked about the Inverness based 158s, they have big airline seat back tables with a pull out wire extension that means you can comfortably use a decent sized laptop in them. On the other hand on the 170s its a struggle to fit a coffee and a kitkat on the fold down tables on the airline style seats. Hopefully the HSTs have decent sized tables on the airline seats too, don't mind sitting with strangers at table bays, but with a decent airline seat table that's where I'd go when travelling on my own.

The problem with the 170's seat back tables is not the size, but the shape. They're curved with a large lip around the edge, which makes the usable flat area too small.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with the 170's seat back tables is not the size, but the shape. They're curved with a large lip around the edge, which makes the usable flat area too small.

The big difficulty is the dual purpose of the tables, the requirements for which conflict with one another.

For drinks, you don't want them to slide off if the train goes round a corner or brakes sharply, so a lip is needed.

For a laptop, it will almost certainly be bigger than the table, so for it to sit nicely you want *no* lip.

So designing a lip that won't affect laptop use is difficult. Personally, I tend to put my laptop on my knee rather than on the table, but it does mean if the next seat isn't free I can't have a cup of tea as well.

 

[Journeyman]

The big difficulty is the dual purpose of the tables, the requirements for which conflict with one another.

For drinks, you don't want them to slide off if the train goes round a corner or brakes sharply, so a lip is needed.

For a laptop, it will almost certainly be bigger than the table, so for it to sit nicely you want *no* lip.

So designing a lip that won't affect laptop use is difficult. Personally, I tend to put my laptop on my knee rather than on the table, but it does mean if the next seat isn't free I can't have a cup of tea as well.

Much as I hate the ironing boards, the ones on the 385s have very large flat seatback tables, with a recess for a cup, and this seems to be a very good design. A buffet steward also pointed out to me that the best way to stop your drink sliding about is to put a napkin under it. I tried it and it works very well!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Much as I hate the ironing boards, the ones on the 385s have very large flat seatback tables, with a recess for a cup, and this seems to be a very good design. A buffet steward also pointed out to me that the best way to stop your drink sliding about is to put a napkin under it. I tried it and it works very well!

From time to time TOCs have given out paper coasters for that purpose, including the entertainingly named "Cambrian Coasters" in the days when Central Trains ran their rotting 153s to Pwllheli.

 

[marks87]

The big difficulty is the dual purpose of the tables, the requirements for which conflict with one another.

For drinks, you don't want them to slide off if the train goes round a corner or brakes sharply, so a lip is needed.

For a laptop, it will almost certainly be bigger than the table, so for it to sit nicely you want *no* lip.

So designing a lip that won't affect laptop use is difficult. Personally, I tend to put my laptop on my knee rather than on the table, but it does mean if the next seat isn't free I can't have a cup of tea as well.

Why not just incorporate a recessed cup holder and no lip? Best of both worlds.

 

[najaB]

Why not just incorporate a recessed cup holder and no lip?

Because there's no recessed sandwich/phone/<other item> holder.