ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[EE Andy b1]

I wouldnt expect a descent HST service until next year now. No point in trying to rush, that's a laugh, the sets into service now whether classic or refurbished until staff are properly trained or they'll run into more problems further (No pun) down the line.

 

[scotraildriver]

We HAVE to use them now. More 170s and 158 going off lease mean's if we don't use unrefurbished HSTs there will literally be no trains to operate the service

 

[hexagon789]

We HAVE to use them now. More 170s and 158 going off lease mean's if we don't use unrefurbished HSTs there will literally be no trains to operate the service

Yes, but I think what people are wondering, i certainly am, is are there enough to operate the service anyway though?

 

[Esker-pades]

Yes, but I think what people are wondering, i certainly am, is are there enough to operate the service anyway though?

Not really.

 

[EE Andy b1]

We HAVE to use them now. More 170s and 158 going off lease mean's if we don't use unrefurbished HSTs there will literally be no trains to operate the service

We know these trains are needed like yesterday!
Well this is all down to a totally inept government and Department for Transport, sitting around doing nothing but talking rubbish about the ten top priority things there going to sort out. Still waiting for one.

Just delay all TOC's new timetables and rolling stock movements with no penalties for 12 months and let everyone try and catch up.
The whole country, not just Scotland, is in a mess, railway wise in one form or another.

The HST refurbishment is going very slowly for reasons we now all know about, it's not going to get any better or quicker.

Is there enough drivers & guards trained up to run a descent service without having to cancel service mid diagram on classic sets never mind the refurbished sets?

Has as already been mentioned will there be enough HST sets? Doubtful...

So the travelling publics travel nightmares will continue all because the DfT accepted franchise bids for TOCs which were really unrealistic time wise but promised so that that bidder won that franchise all at a price with great returns.

Eventually though and i know this doesn't help just now but Scotland will have one of the best 40 year old fleets in the country brought upto a descent state fit for the use over the next 15 years or so, whether reliable or not, time will tell.

I would rather be travelling on these HST sets than most modern new trains but only if there going to turn up as timetabled.

 

[Southsider]

The HST refurbishment is going very slowly for reasons we now all know about, it's not going to get any better or quicker.

I must have missed it - what are the reasons for the delays? I’ve seen lots of speculation around corrosion etc.

 

[jimm]

So the travelling publics travel nightmares will continue all because the DfT accepted franchise bids for TOCs which were really unrealistic time wise but promised so that that bidder won that franchise all at a price with great returns.

a. The Scotrail franchisee is chosen by Transport for Scotland, not the Department for Transport in London.
b. How was anyone supposed to know at the time of the franchise contest that Wabtec was being wildly optimistic about how much time it would need to fit power doors to the HSTs? XC and GWR, in conjunction with their leasing companies, also placed orders on the basis of what they were being told about when they could expect to see modified trains in service. Had the operators owned crystal balls, they would probably all have gone in search of alternative rolling stock/sought short-term derogations to allow slam-door HSTs to run until they could get new trains delivered, rather than see their rolling stock plans go up in smoke.
c. What great returns?

ABELLIO ScotRail made a loss of £3.5 million after tax in its first full year of operating train services in Scotland, new accounts show.

Abellio, an arm of the state-owned Dutch railway operator Nederlandse Spoorwegen (NS), took over the ScotRail franchise in April 2015 and made profits of £9.5 million in the first nine months.

However the latest accounts show in 2016 the business was loaned £10 million from Abellio Transport Holding, another branch of NS.

The 2015 figures had sparked accusations of Abellio "profiteering" from the franchise, but the accounts show no dividend was paid to its Netherlands-based parent company in either year.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/1...o-bail-out-abellio-scotrail-following-losses/

 

[mcmad]

Jimm,

b) plenty of people inside the industry commented on the extremely optimistic timetable for HST conversion/introduction at the time of the franchise announcement and the protracted conversion of the chiltern mk3's was well known so this is total head in the sand stuff from both the TOC's, ROSCO's and TS/DfT.

c) Given the investment, the first year or so was always going to be at a paper loss, Abellio aren't running (allegedly!) a train service out of the goodness of their hearts though. They will be expecting a return on that investment.

 

[EE Andy b1]

I must have missed it - what are the reasons for the delays? I’ve seen lots of speculation around corrosion etc.

Corrosion, electrics, door alignment being different each vehicle. These Mk3s are 30-40 years old built to less stringent specs.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Jimm,

b) plenty of people inside the industry commented on the extremely optimistic timetable for HST conversion/introduction at the time of the franchise announcement and the protracted conversion of the chiltern mk3's was well known so this is total head in the sand stuff from both the TOC's, ROSCO's and TS/DfT.

c) Given the investment, the first year or so was always going to be at a paper loss, Abellio aren't running (allegedly!) a train service out of the goodness of their hearts though. They will be expecting a return on that investment.

Spot on! Thanks.

 

[Southsider]

Two Seven Cities power cars in Shields depot as I passed by five minutes ago.

 

[Northhighland]

We know these trains are needed like yesterday!
Well this is all down to a totally inept government and Department for Transport, sitting around doing nothing but talking rubbish about the ten top priority things there going to sort out. Still waiting for one.

Just delay all TOC's new timetables and rolling stock movements with no penalties for 12 months and let everyone try and catch up.
The whole country, not just Scotland, is in a mess, railway wise in one form or another.

The HST refurbishment is going very slowly for reasons we now all know about, it's not going to get any better or quicker.

Is there enough drivers & guards trained up to run a descent service without having to cancel service mid diagram on classic sets never mind the refurbished sets?

Has as already been mentioned will there be enough HST sets? Doubtful...

So the travelling publics travel nightmares will continue all because the DfT accepted franchise bids for TOCs which were really unrealistic time wise but promised so that that bidder won that franchise all at a price with great returns.

Eventually though and i know this doesn't help just now but Scotland will have one of the best 40 year old fleets in the country brought upto a descent state fit for the use over the next 15 years or so, whether reliable or not, time will tell.

I would rather be travelling on these HST sets than most modern new trains but only if there going to turn up as timetabled.

At current rate of production the first refurb sets will be 15 years in service before the last one is delivered. This is a mess and some answers are due.

 

[43096]

At current rate of production the first refurb sets will be 15 years in service before the last one is delivered. This is a mess and some answers are due.

The answers have been given numerous times. People throwing toys out of the pram and demanding answers aren’t going to either improve things or get a different response from the reasons already given.

 

[hexagon789]

Not really.

Didn't think so somehow.

 

[mcmad]

The answers have been given numerous times. People throwing toys out of the pram and demanding answers aren’t going to either improve things or get a different response from the reasons already given.

I've not seen anything official from either Scotrail or Wabtec so not sure what answers you think having been given numerous times, everything on here is just speculation and platform wibble

 

[Iskra]

I've not seen anything official from either Scotrail or Wabtec so not sure what answers you think having been given numerous times, everything on here is just speculation and platform wibble

Asbestos. Corrosion. Lack of any accurate drawings. Decades of depots bodging that needs to be undone, and then repaired properly. This means every carriage is different. A bit of incompetence. All these things cost time and money to sort out, before the actual job can be done.

 

[hexagon789]

Asbestos.

That's not good, other than the original brakes pads, I wasn't aware asbestos was used in HSTs.

 

[jimm]

Jimm,

b) plenty of people inside the industry commented on the extremely optimistic timetable for HST conversion/introduction at the time of the franchise announcement and the protracted conversion of the chiltern mk3's was well known so this is total head in the sand stuff from both the TOC's, ROSCO's and TS/DfT.

c) Given the investment, the first year or so was always going to be at a paper loss, Abellio aren't running (allegedly!) a train service out of the goodness of their hearts though. They will be expecting a return on that investment.

Sorry, but at the time Wabtec was developing the current design it was specifically being sold to the world as offering a more straightforward and faster way of providing power doors than the Chiltern project.

Abellio may be expecting a return but they aren't actually the ones investing lots of money in the new trains and HST modifications as that's the leasing companies' cash - though every TOC seems to make out they are the ones paying for new trains - and I would be astonished if Abellio's year one plans included making a £10m loan to Scotrail.

As the BBC Scotland transport correspondent put it:

It's a family affair, but it all points in one direction - ScotRail Abellio needed urgent help to get it out of financial bother.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-41388672

 

[Goldromans]

It has been nearly 4 months since the first refurbished set arrived in Scotland. Looks like the idea that things at Wabtec would speed up after the first delivery has well and truly gone out the window.

 

[AndrewE]

Asbestos. Corrosion. Lack of any accurate drawings. Decades of depots bodging that needs to be undone, and then repaired properly. This means every carriage is different. A bit of incompetence. All these things cost time and money to sort out, before the actual job can be done.

That's not good, other than the original brakes pads, I wasn't aware asbestos was used in HSTs.

It wasn't, apart from possibly white asbestos rope on an exhaust pipe or two. Brake pads, yes, but it wasn't a big deal. I don't think any Mk 2s had asbestos in, for that matter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's not good, other than the original brakes pads, I wasn't aware asbestos was used in HSTs.

There's not an awful lot from the 1970s (be that a house or a vehicle) that doesn't.

 

[Highland37]

It has been nearly 4 months since the first refurbished set arrived in Scotland. Looks like the idea that things at Wabtec would speed up after the first delivery has well and truly gone out the window.

Wabtec have demonstrated, that for whatever reason, they are incredibly slow. The full fleet will never be delivered.

 

[Stoney1979]

Getting back to the thread-topic, the SR HST introduction, can any of the "in-the-know" contributors say either way whether or not there are enough of them as a totality (power cars, coaches, trained staff etc.) to run things come Monday?

Partly general interest, but also selfish as I'm travelling the HML to Ed and back on Monday and wondering if the car would be a better idea....

 

[47271]

Getting back to the thread-topic, the SR HST introduction, can any of the "in-the-know" contributors say either way whether or not there are enough of them as a totality (power cars, coaches, trained staff etc.) to run things come Monday?

Partly general interest, but also selfish as I'm travelling the HML to Ed and back on Monday and wondering if the car would be a better idea....

Maybe drive to Perth to buy yourself some flexibility....

 

[EE Andy b1]

Partly general interest, but also selfish as I'm travelling the HML to Ed and back on Monday and wondering if the car would be a better idea....

You'll know by Tuesday! Sorry.

 

[connormill]

I've got a Aderdeen to Waverly booked on Sunday evening and now I'm starting to worry about whether or not SR will be suffering cancellations as result of the new timetable.

At least there is the late XC service to fall back on, but I'd rather have an HST or 170 over a voyager.

With the new timetable coming in on Sunday, does anyone here in the know have an idea which runs are HST classic, HST Refurb or 170?

 

[43096]

43130/139 have run from Brush to Wabtec Doncaster today, so there’s now two pairs of ScotRail power cars on site.

 

[EE Andy b1]

43130/139 have run from Brush to Wabtec Doncaster today, so there’s now two pairs of ScotRail power cars on site.

Perhaps a refurbished 7 Cities set will get released early next week. Here's hoping...

 

[hexagon789]

It wasn't, apart from possibly white asbestos rope on an exhaust pipe or two. Brake pads, yes, but it wasn't a big deal. I don't think any Mk 2s had asbestos in, for that matter.

Is it just traces then?

There's not an awful lot from the 1970s (be that a house or a vehicle) that doesn't.

Very true, my garage is entirely insulated with blue asbestos.

 

[43096]

Is it just traces then?

Yes. One of those situations where it may be present in small quantities.