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ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

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hexagon789

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Yes. One of those situations where it may be present in small quantities.

The thing is then, if this is affecting the refurbs, why doesn't it affect every other HST in Britain?

Is it a case of "out of sight, out of mind"? If it's left alone it's not so much of an issue and it's only because the refurbishment is either finding/disturbing trace elements of asbestos that it's a problem.
 
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AndrewE

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The thing is then, if this is affecting the refurbs, why doesn't it affect every other HST in Britain?

Is it a case of "out of sight, out of mind"? If it's left alone it's not so much of an issue and it's only because the refurbishment is either finding/disturbing trace elements of asbestos that it's a problem.
To be a bit clearer, I don't think there will ever have been asbestos on Mk3 coaches, except some white asbestos that was in the the original resin brake pads (which was degraded by the heat and pressure of braking anyway.)
I was being flippant when I said that the HST power cars might have had some [white] asbestos rope wrapping around exhaust pipes, if they did it will have been replaced by other insulation years ago.
I think blue asbestos body panel heat and noise insulation was replaced by fibreglass half way through the build of Mk 1 coaches, so Mk 2s never had any in them - and if they were tread-braked with cast-iron blocks there won't even have been any fibre-reinforced resin in them either. BR had a very thorough set of records and made sure that contaminated stock wasn't sold on but went for appropriate scrapping.
 

hexagon789

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To be a bit clearer, I don't think there will ever have been asbestos on Mk3 coaches, except some white asbestos that was in the the original resin brake pads (which was degraded by the heat and pressure of braking anyway.)
I was being flippant when I said that the HST power cars might have had some [white] asbestos rope wrapping around exhaust pipes, if they did it will have been replaced by other insulation years ago.
I think blue asbestos body panel heat and noise insulation was replaced by fibreglass half way through the build of Mk 1 coaches, so Mk 2s never had any in them - and if they were tread-braked with cast-iron blocks there won't even have been any fibre-reinforced resin in them either. BR had a very thorough set of records and made sure that contaminated stock wasn't sold on but went for appropriate scrapping.

I did wonder, as I had read at length on another forum about the switch from asbestos brake pads and the issues that caused as well as BR being commendably thorough about recording asbestos contamination.

I was just quite surprised to read it that's all really.
 

SC43090

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Thursday 6th & Friday 7th December 2018

I understand In the last couple of days there as been 2 diagrams operated by what Scotrail call them Classic HSTs

2W80 0809 Aberdeen Dundee // 2W81 0928 Dundee Aberdeen // 2W82 1150 Aberdeen Dundee // 2W83 1327 Dundee Aberdeen as been operated by HA 05 set formed as 43148 41022 42030 42010 44010 43003

1B07 0546 Aberdeen Edinburgh // 1L57 0900 Edinburgh Dundee // 1L60 1030 Dundee Edinburgh // 1A75 1230 Edinburgh Inverurie // 1B40 Inverurie Edinburgh was operated by HA 07 43179 41010 42012 42013 44004 43033....

Yesterday 06/ 12/ 18 HST power cars & HA 07 set did the following 43179 / 43033 did 1A61 1330 Edinburgh Aberdeen // 2A64 1619 Aberdeen Dyce // 1B43 1639 Dyce Edinburgh


SC 43090
 

Northhighland

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Corrosion, electrics, door alignment being different each vehicle. These Mk3s are 30-40 years old built to less stringent specs.

Really? That is a pretty poor set of excuses. A whole new end could have been fabricated for each coach by now with ease. This is fairly straight forward fabrication work. We have companies in the UK that can build entire power stations quicker than Wabtec can fit a few doors.

i accept that a bit of time would be taken at the start to get the methodology sorted, but if Wabtec are really trying to say there programme is over a year adrift because they didn't think or allow for 40 year old coaches having corrosion, or not being perfectly manufactured is really risible. That excuse would hold water for a wee while but is now way past its sell by date.

There are perfectly reasonable questions to be asked as to why 4 months after the firs tone was delivered we have not seen a second set. At this create the delivery programme will be likely to be around 10 years. That would mean better looking at other options.
 

Highland37

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I totally agree with you.

If you look at the rate of production of the Aventra train, for a brand new product, they are producing vehicles at high rate.
 

jimm

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Really? That is a pretty poor set of excuses. A whole new end could have been fabricated for each coach by now with ease. This is fairly straight forward fabrication work. We have companies in the UK that can build entire power stations quicker than Wabtec can fit a few doors.

i accept that a bit of time would be taken at the start to get the methodology sorted, but if Wabtec are really trying to say there programme is over a year adrift because they didn't think or allow for 40 year old coaches having corrosion, or not being perfectly manufactured is really risible. That excuse would hold water for a wee while but is now way past its sell by date.

There are perfectly reasonable questions to be asked as to why 4 months after the firs tone was delivered we have not seen a second set. At this create the delivery programme will be likely to be around 10 years. That would mean better looking at other options.

The methodology of fabricating new coach ends was very well understood - that was how the plug doors were installed on the Chiltern Mk3s - but that also took far longer than initially expected, because as EE Andy b1 has indicated, in effect no two Mk3 bodyshells are the same - taking the end off was easy enough, but it was then a hell of a job to get the new one to line up with the rest of the bodyshell and attach it.

The idea behind the plug doors was that you took that problem out of the equation, but unfortunately the 'quicker and easier' method has turned out not to be.

Since the first Scotrail set was delivered, Wabtec have completed a seven-coach set for XC and the second GWR four-coach set, plus a spare coach for GWR - which I assume was in line with the promised delivery programme for the three TOCs. Hopefully the pace will pick up, but who knows?
 

Highland37

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We all know. It's a truism to state that the programme is hugely delayed. The pace to date has been painfully slow and if the issues you outline above are the real reasons, then there can be little hope of any increase in the rate.
 

Highlandspring

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Thursday 6th & Friday 7th December 2018

I understand In the last couple of days there as been 2 diagrams operated by what Scotrail call them Classic HSTs

2W80 0809 Aberdeen Dundee // 2W81 0928 Dundee Aberdeen // 2W82 1150 Aberdeen Dundee // 2W83 1327 Dundee Aberdeen as been operated by HA 05 set formed as 43148 41022 42030 42010 44010 43003
That’s a driver training turn.
 

EE Andy b1

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That’s a driver training turn.

There is no reason whatsoever why the driver/Guard and staff training couldn't be done whilst using the sets to actually form a service train. Plenty driver training done on service trains with instructors. Best of both worlds then. Training and passenger movement.
 

coppercapped

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Asbestos. Corrosion. Lack of any accurate drawings. Decades of depots bodging that needs to be undone, and then repaired properly. This means every carriage is different. A bit of incompetence. All these things cost time and money to sort out, before the actual job can be done.
Why do you imagine that there is any asbestos in any of the Mark 3 coaches?

The prototype Mk 2 coach, W13252 completed early in 1963, was insulated with foamed polyurethane in the enclosed body cavities - it did not use any asbestos. Subsequently some of the very early production open second Mark 2 coaches used sprayed asbestos on the bodyside panels but this method of insulation was soon abandoned. No asbestos has been used in coach construction since about 1965 and the asbestos insulated Mark 2 coaches had been withdrawn by 1988.
 

Esker-pades

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There is no reason whatsoever why the driver/Guard and staff training couldn't be done whilst using the sets to actually form a service train. Plenty driver training done on service trains with instructors. Best of both worlds then. Training and passenger movement.
HSTs in passenger service with ScotRail often have trainees on board. The problem is that they are so behind in training their staff on both refurbished and unrefurbished HSTs that they really need all the training opportunities going, both in and out of passenger service.
 

43096

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Really? That is a pretty poor set of excuses. A whole new end could have been fabricated for each coach by now with ease. This is fairly straight forward fabrication work. We have companies in the UK that can build entire power stations quicker than Wabtec can fit a few doors.

i accept that a bit of time would be taken at the start to get the methodology sorted, but if Wabtec are really trying to say there programme is over a year adrift because they didn't think or allow for 40 year old coaches having corrosion, or not being perfectly manufactured is really risible. That excuse would hold water for a wee while but is now way past its sell by date.

There are perfectly reasonable questions to be asked as to why 4 months after the firs tone was delivered we have not seen a second set. At this create the delivery programme will be likely to be around 10 years. That would mean better looking at other options.
Perhaps you should volunteer your services to Wabtec if you think it is that straightforward. Obviously you know more about it than they do.
 

chuff chuff

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HSTs in passenger service with ScotRail often have trainees on board. The problem is that they are so behind in training their staff on both refurbished and unrefurbished HSTs that they really need all the training opportunities going, both in and out of passenger service.

Also drivers have been passed out months ago and need runs to keep their competence current.
 

EE Andy b1

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Also drivers have been passed out months ago and need runs to keep their competence current.

Yes this is normally at least once in six months which is not much but all that's needed to keep competency.
So if the unions, especially RMT and there members have agreed the use of classic HSTs, then get them in passenger service for training and competency.
Plenty power cars in Scotland, should be plenty HST Mk3s around also for short lease. TfS should step in now and make it happen for the sake of the travelling public because it's obvious the 7 Cities HST sets are not going to be in squadron service for years.
 

Aictos

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So how many times has Scotrail hired in a LNER driver due to unavailability of a HST qualified Scotrail driver?
 

Aictos

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I beg to differ, I know there was least one LNER driver who being spare found themselves working a Scotrail HST recently because there wasn't a Scotrail driver available hence why I asked how many times has this happened.
 

Highlandspring

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I beg to differ, I know there was least one LNER driver who being spare found themselves working a Scotrail HST recently because there wasn't a Scotrail driver available hence why I asked how many times has this happened.
I think your friend has been spinning you a tale. There have been no hired in drivers (other than for ROG operated empty stock movements), services have been cancelled where an HST competent driver was not available.
 

Aictos

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Doubt it, maybe it's a one off but it certainly happened.
 

Stoney1979

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So they will have all the HSTs they need available for passenger use? That's quite a jump if it is.

My thoughts exactly. With the evidence pointing to currently x1 refurb and x2 classics in service as of today, another 8 classics coming in - literally overnight - is a massive change. Possibly not all required due to it being a Sunday, but come Monday I guess that's the "plan".
 

Chuggington21

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I think your friend has been spinning you a tale. There have been no hired in drivers (other than for ROG operated empty stock movements), services have been cancelled where an HST competent driver was not available.

100% happened and on more than 1 occasion. Also been used to move empties
 
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