ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Craig2601]

Slam Doors do add to dwell times as you need to ensure they are closed properly, I know of one incident a few years ago which a emergency stop had to be used with the HST half in/half out of the station and certainly past the signal starter as one of the doors on a HST was slightly on the catch which resulted in a change of working practices because of that.
.

Certain differences between here and Italy then, train managed to go from Rimini to Bologna with a door open! Wish I could say changed days but only happened a few years ago...

 

[DarloRich]

I thought Scotrail was a professional Railway Operation - are we really reduced to "hoping and praying"!

To knowingly replace reliable trains with unreliable is mad.

This whole project is utterly stupid - tarted up 40 year old scrapheaps.

The main culprit is the Scottish Goverment - and I say that with great disappointment as an SNP supporter - They could easily have insisted on new trains, economically added on to any one of the existing contracts for such trains now under way - the Mark 5a would have been ideal. Even the 170s reformed into 6 car sets with a buffet section in one of the middle cars would have been better.

As for the greater acceleration of the HSTs - so what - what people want is a seat and reliability - 10/15 min off 3 hour journeys is neither here nor there compared to that.

lets see what the McNormals think when they start running. I know my mum uses the train between Glasgow/Edinburgh and Dundee,Aberdeen and Inverness on a regular basis and is very keen to be getting them (I quote: "Great a proper train rather than a silly little bus train" )

 

[greyman42]

So how many HSTs were in passenger use on Scotrail today?

 

[Highland37]

I thought Scotrail was a professional Railway Operation - are we really reduced to "hoping and praying"!

To knowingly replace reliable trains with unreliable is mad.

This whole project is utterly stupid - tarted up 40 year old scrapheaps.

The main culprit is the Scottish Goverment - and I say that with great disappointment as an SNP supporter - They could easily have insisted on new trains, economically added on to any one of the existing contracts for such trains now under way - the Mark 5a would have been ideal. Even the 170s reformed into 6 car sets with a buffet section in one of the middle cars would have been better.

As for the greater acceleration of the HSTs - so what - what people want is a seat and reliability - 10/15 min off 3 hour journeys is neither here nor there compared to that.

No. The main culprits are Wabtec followed by, a long way behind, Abellio. No one could or did know that Wabtec would be so poor at delivering on their contract.

Did the meltdown happen though?

 

[greyman42]

The main culprits are Wabtec followed by, a long way behind, Abellio. No one could or did know that Wabtec would be so poor at delivering on their contract.

A lot of people with knowledge and experience of the industry could of predicted it.

 

[Northhighland]

I really wish people would stop repeating this. There is BR era research which shows a clear, consistent reverse relationship between journey times and ridership levels. Are you aware of any research which suggests this has changed?

Be honest here people travelling to Inverness regularly plan around the east coast service in order to get a seat. Yes a shorter journey time would be nice but a three hour journey getting a seat is more important.

 

[Northhighland]

Agree 100%. The GWR HSTs are woefully unreliable, even compared to all the other HST fleets, let alone the 170s.

Have a little faith in the maintenance teams. Reliability is never an issue in my experience I am sure the teams will get to grips with the HST in the same way they have the 170/158.

 

[Stoney1979]

No great meltdown today, it would appear.

From observations of the 7 cities arrivals and departures throughout the day it seems to have gone pretty well.

There have been some problems Inverness - Perth and onwards, but don't know if they were specifically HST-related, or not.

 

[theblackwatch]

It has no TF, either. They cannot run in passenger service without a TGS in unrefurbished condition as the TGS contains emergency equipment, has the accommodation for the guard and the CDL to 36-way translator that enables the driver/guard buzzer to work.

Proof that the set contains a TGS (next to 43134) and a TF (next to 43135) at https://www.flickr.com/photos/graeme8665/

It would appear TOPS or whatever system is used to record these formations is incorrect.

 

[Clansman]

Reliability is only half the battle given there's a good chunk of staff still be to be trained on them - hence some of the cancellations.

 

[Ginaro]

There have been some problems Inverness - Perth and onwards, but don't know if they were specifically HST-related, or not.

An issue for a classic set out of Inverness but it was soon sorted: https://twitter.com/1edmountain/status/1072184611168509953

 

[hexagon789]

An issue for a classic set out of Inverness but it was soon sorted: https://twitter.com/1edmountain/status/1072184611168509953

I assume the brakes failed to release rather than had 'gone' in the sense of no brakes whatsoever.

 

[43096]

Proof that the set contains a TGS (next to 43134) and a TF (next to 43135) at https://www.flickr.com/photos/graeme8665/

It would appear TOPS or whatever system is used to record these formations is incorrect.

Indeed. And also underlines that a bit of specialist knowledge helps rather than just regurgitating the numbers straight out of the system!

 

[nat67]

Ok let's try to keep it to topic. What HST power cars are out and about at the mo on what sets please.
Cheers.

 

[47271]

My first experience, and the first attempt at running the early evening Edinburgh to Inverness service as an HST...
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G81337/2018/12/10
I got off and went to the pub for two hours and got the 1936, never before have I been relieved to see a Turbostar in the platform.

Others got the 1840 to Perth and hung around for buses I understand.

Not great.

 

[route:oxford]

Are there 2+3 "Heritage" HST sets out and about in Scotland?

A relative is convinced he saw one at Dunblane yesterday.

 

[Northhighland]

My first experience, and the first attempt at running the early evening Edinburgh to Inverness service as an HST...
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G81337/2018/12/10
I got off and went to the pub for two hours and got the 1936, never before have I been relieved to see a Turbostar in the platform.

Others got the 1840 to Perth and hung around for buses I understand.

Not great.

Train from Edinburgh cancelled again this morning. Costs business a fortune.

 

[najaB]

Are there 2+3 "Heritage" HST sets out and about in Scotland?

A relative is convinced he saw one at Dunblane yesterday.

None that I'm aware of, no. Should be 2+4 and 2+5 only.

 

[najaB]

Train from Edinburgh cancelled again this morning. Costs business a fortune.

Bear in mind that delay codes aren't always 100% accurate, and since 'Problem with train' and 'Train crew rostering problem' are both held against the TOC there might not be an incentive to correct it.

 

[IanXC]

Bear in mind that delay codes aren't always 100% accurate, and since 'Problem with train' and 'Train crew rostering problem' are both held against the TOC there might not be an incentive to correct it.

It definitely will get corrected, but as I understand it RTT will(/can?) only ever show the first reason attributed for some reason.

 

[najaB]

I don't think they will be anymore than a stop-gap as Wabtec is clearly not going to be delivering the full fleet.

While they aren't doing well currently, they have a large outstanding order book so have a huge impetus to get their production rate sorted out.

 

[Highland37]

Yes but do you think they will do it? Their current track record is truly awful and that alone speaks volumes. Politics won't wait for Wabtec. Eventually this will become a scandal (unless things change dramatically) and an order for new trains will be placed.

 

[ComUtoR]

Thanks for this. I'm wondering if the one I've put in bold is correct though as HA04 contains no TGS.

It has no TF, either. They cannot run in passenger service without a TGS in unrefurbished condition as the TGS

TF ? TGS ?

Cheers gsnedders

 

[gsnedders]

TF ? TGS ?

Trailer First
Trailer Guard Standard (or Second, depending on period)

 

[Highlandspring]

What HST power cars are out and about at the mo on what sets please.

As of 0300 this morming -

HA01 43175/124
HA02 no powercars allocated
HA03 43143/036
HA04 43135/134
HA05 43148/003
HA06 43168/140
HA07 43179/033
HA08 43150/164
HA09 43126/136
HA10 43144/147
HA11 43127/132
HA12 43133/126
HA26 43183/169

 

[najaB]

Yes but do you think they will do it? Their current track record is truly awful and that alone speaks volumes.

I'm not privy to the contracts, naturally, but if they've been scoped even slightly well then there will be penalties for failing to deliver what has been promised.

 

[Stoney1979]

Train from Edinburgh cancelled again this morning. Costs business a fortune.

Is this down to a specific HST failure?

Something I've been harking on about for months, how to objectively measure the change.

How can the overall performance, intro and success/failure of the HSTs be accurately and objectively measured and fairly compared to what came before?

Those who are prejudiced against the HSTs will leap on any individual failure and laud the "good old days" of the 170s, when, in fact, plenty 170s failed too and plenty are glad to see the back of them for other reasons - primarily, lack of comfort and capacity. Whereas pro-HST people, like me, would say the first couple of days of such a huge change have, on the whole, been a success.

 

[Northhighland]

Is this down to a specific HST failure?

Something I've been harking on about for months, how to objectively measure the change.

How can the overall performance, intro and success/failure of the HSTs be accurately and objectively measured and fairly compared to what came before?

Those who are prejudiced against the HSTs will leap on any individual failure and laud the "good old days" of the 170s, when, in fact, plenty 170s failed too and plenty are glad to see the back of them for other reasons - primarily, lack of comfort and capacity. Whereas pro-HST people, like me, would say the first couple of days of such a huge change have, on the whole, been a success.

Honestly don’t know. Staff are never very forthcoming. Agree with your points re HST.

 

[Stoney1979]

For all the problems on paper, the SR staff who have made the HST intro work during the last few days should be congratulated. A massive change in a very short time under evidently less than premium management.

 

[Northhighland]

More cancellations from Inverness this morning, Trains terminating at Perth. Not a lot of good if the train takes you half way to where you want to go. This time they are saying it is due to crew shortages. Interestingly how long does it take to train a crew on slam door stock?

I do agree that credit needs to go to the staff on the ground that made this work, many work very hard and treat customers with respect.