ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Northhighland]

Solved that problem - it started in Perth tonight... The 1255 was terminated at Perth as well (same set).

Wont bother me anymore, was down today by car. Will be on the road now until the service is sorted. Hate driving but not paying anymore to be herded like cattle and treated like dirt. Simply just had enough of ScotRail.

 

[BRX]

What would be even better and would eliminate the cost of running a power car constantly (at 1000rpm, as opposed to 750rpm at idle) would be to install shore supplies -the cost would pay for itself pretty quickly!

Not to mention avoiding unnecessary air pollution.

 

[47271]

It did on Monday night...mind you, an instructor & a driver learning HSTs turned up in Perth a couple of weeks ago to have a run on the 1900 Perth to Inverness (same working) & a 158 turned up...I shudder to think how busy THAT would have been leaving Waverley at 1739!

It has been an HST a few times (I've been on the southbound working & crossed it at Dunkeld), but not nearly often enough.

Cancelled between Edinburgh and Perth again tonight. Jeez.

 

[Highlandspring]

Edinburgh driver shortage, same as last night.

 

[Ben.A.98]

Yes, you can pre-heat both engines with 1 power car running (also keeps the compressors running, coach aircon/lighting, etc), via the ETS.

What would be even better and would eliminate the cost of running a power car constantly (at 1000rpm, as opposed to 750rpm at idle) would be to install shore supplies -the cost would pay for itself pretty quickly!

I gather from this then that the ETS cables at the station ends of the platforms in Inverness don't work then? (Unless they are not ETS cables as I have assumed.)

 

[route:oxford]

I gather from this then that the ETS cables at the station ends of the platforms in Inverness don't work then? (Unless they are not ETS cables as I have assumed.)

It may well be that there is a maximum load and only one set of cables can be used at any one time.

 

[jingsmonty]

I gather from this then that the ETS cables at the station ends of the platforms in Inverness don't work then? (Unless they are not ETS cables as I have assumed.)

They are 1000v DC supplies for loco hauled ETH - HST needs a 415v 3 phase AC supply

 

[43096]

They are 1000v DC supplies for loco hauled ETH - HST needs a 415v 3 phase AC supply

What do they do with the LNER set for the Chieftain?

 

[59CosG95]

What do they do with the LNER set for the Chieftain?

IIRC, that stables in the platforms, which leads me to believe there's a 415v AC shore supply within the station that the depot is lacking.

 

[jimm]

What would be even better and would eliminate the cost of running a power car constantly (at 1000rpm, as opposed to 750rpm at idle) would be to install shore supplies -the cost would pay for itself pretty quickly!

GWR may be able to help here - the 415v shore supplies for HSTs in the three GWR stabling sidings behind Worcester Shrub Hill were installed in 2010, so would presumably have some life left in them. I think the equipment for the long siding at Hereford station was a much older installation and was life-extended in 2007 or 2008, so probably not a candidate.

 

[43096]

IIRC, that stables in the platforms, which leads me to believe there's a 415v AC shore supply within the station that the depot is lacking.

I thought there was - wasn't it added when the MTU re-power was done to avoid idling overnight (and MTUs being big girls blouses and need pre-heating)? For a while the Chieftain had to have at least one Valenta car on it before the shore supply went in so that it could pre-heat the MTU.

 

[Wst71Pa2]

They are 1000v DC supplies for loco hauled ETH - HST needs a 415v 3 phase AC supply

Well that's not feckin difficult! no doubt it will go out to tender and cost 10x what it should

 

[Ben.A.98]

What do they do with the LNER set for the Chieftain?

Left running through the night.

 

[47271]

Edinburgh driver shortage, same as last night.

I finally got home over two hours late following a bus substitution from Edinburgh Gateway to Perth, and then joining the 2100 train service.

I thought that there was no slower way of getting from Edinburgh to Perth than going by train, but a bus that makes the train stops is even slower.

I'll get my money back, but not for the preposterous £6 tram fare from the Airport - the railway ticket machine in the terminal was broken into the bargain so through ticketing wasn't possible.

I'm not saying that any of this was directly caused by HSTs, but it's part and parcel of their shambolic introduction.

The story's largely off topic I know, but still very, very disappointing and frustrating.

 

[jingsmonty]

What do they do with the LNER set for the Chieftain?

The South leading Power Car is left running all night, to supply ETS.

 

[jingsmonty]

Well that's not feckin difficult! no doubt it will go out to tender and cost 10x what it should

I suspect Scotrail just won't bother, as the 415v 3 Phase AC supply is specific to HSTs (as far as I'm aware) & would be useless once the HSTs in turn are replaced. Total waste of fuel, in my opinion - we SHOULD have shore supplies fitted at all stabling locations!

 

[jingsmonty]

GWR may be able to help here - the 415v shore supplies for HSTs in the three GWR stabling sidings behind Worcester Shrub Hill were installed in 2010, so would presumably have some life left in them. I think the equipment for the long siding at Hereford station was a much older installation and was life-extended in 2007 or 2008, so probably not a candidate.

Very sensible & logical suggestion - but when have the railways ever done anything logically & sensibly! I'm tempted to post that suggestion on the Scotrail staff forum....

 

[gordonjahn]

I suspect Scotrail just won't bother, as the 415v 3 Phase AC supply is specific to HSTs (as far as I'm aware) & would be useless once the HSTs in turn are replaced. Total waste of fuel, in my opinion - we SHOULD have shore supplies fitted at all stabling locations!

I was about to post something along the lines of "A 415V 3ph supply isn't exactly a specialist supply though - it's standard wall-socket power, albeit all three phases instead of the single-phase to neutral 230V most of us are used to" but looking at https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/standards/GMGN2590 Iss 1.pdf (page 52) for the vehicle connectors, it specifies the ETS supplies as being capable of handling 600A.

Does anyone know if it is a full ETS connection required for shore supplies or if it's just for keeping engines warm (i.e. most stuff turned off...), would a much more readily available 32A supply be sufficient? I ask because I think I've seen 32A 3ph sockets in Queen Street.

 

[connormill]

Does anyone know if it is a full ETS connection required for shore supplies or if it's just for keeping engines warm (i.e. most stuff turned off...), would a much more readily available 32A supply be sufficient? I ask because I think I've seen 32A 3ph sockets in Queen Street.

3x600A 415V seems like a huge amount of power for just pre-heating some engines.

3x32A 3PH sounds like it would be more than enough - is there a reason that 600A is required in the spec - because that's 431kW and I think you could move a train on that sort of power, let alone just keep it ticking over

 

[swaldman]

I was about to post something along the lines of "A 415V 3ph supply isn't exactly a specialist supply though - it's standard wall-socket power,

Yeah, I was wondering this. Unless there's something unusual or specialist (delta vs star 3-ph wiring? Unusual frequency requirements?), this isn't expensive kit. Even if it needs 600A (and there's no way it needs 600A, except possibly for regs), then the cost would be in getting the power to the station, and civils to put cables in the right place, not in the actual equipment.

 

[swaldman]

3x32A 3PH sounds like it would be more than enough - is there a reason that 600A is required in the spec - because that's 431kW and I think you could move a train on that sort of power, let alone just keep it ticking over

Yes, that's about one and a half Class 08 shunters.

 

[43096]

3x600A 415V seems like a huge amount of power for just pre-heating some engines.

3x32A 3PH sounds like it would be more than enough - is there a reason that 600A is required in the spec - because that's 431kW and I think you could move a train on that sort of power, let alone just keep it ticking over

That would be full pre-heat of the stock from cold in the depths of winter. Train supply rating for a Mk3 is around 30kW and a kitchen car is around 70kW full load.

 

[weatherman222]

Today's 1247 Aberdeen-Glasgow Queen Street "broke down" on platform, so on a "more modern, faster" but cold substitute 170.

 

[Highlandspring]

Where is ABZ? It can’t be Aberdeen because the CRS code for that station is ABD. Also when you say it “broke down” you mean it had a defective windscreen wiper on the leading powercar.

 

[Mordac]

Where is ABZ? It can’t be Aberdeen because the CRS code for that station is ABD. Also when you say it “broke down” you mean it had a defective windscreen wiper on the leading powercar.

ABZ is Aberdeen Airport.

 

[connormill]

That would be full pre-heat of the stock from cold in the depths of winter. Train supply rating for a Mk3 is around 30kW and a kitchen car is around 70kW full load.

Clearly you know more on this subject than I do, but at first glance these figures seem high to say the least.

As I'm sure most hear know, watts = volts x Amps. Volts and Amps are inversely proportional, when one goes up the other goes down to maintain the same wattage rating.

70kW to run one kitchen car would be the equivalent of ~305 amps at 230VAC. given that most residential homes get a 60/80A feed and small businesses get 100/120A feed, 305 seems to be way too high to power was is essentially a 100m2 kitchen

30kW on a trailer car is ~120A @ 230VAC. I know they need AC, Lighting, sockets etc, but 30kW seems like a lot to me.


To put in real money, at an average mains electricity rate of 12p/kWh a 30kW trailer would cost ~£10,500/Year based on only an 8 hour service per day and a 70kW Kitchen car would be ~£25,000/Year

 

[weatherman222]

Where is ABZ? It can’t be Aberdeen because the CRS code for that station is ABD. Also when you say it “broke down” you mean it had a defective windscreen wiper on the leading powercar.

Only quoting the info given at the station

 

[BRX]

because that's 431kW and I think you could move a train on that sort of power, let alone just keep it ticking over

Maybe with a long enough lead plugged in at Inverness, we have a quick way to electrify the HML.

 

[anamyd]

Clearly you know more on this subject than I do, but at first glance these figures seem high to say the least.

As I'm sure most hear know, watts = volts x Amps. Volts and Amps are inversely proportional, when one goes up the other goes down to maintain the same wattage rating.

70kW to run one kitchen car would be the equivalent of ~305 amps at 230VAC. given that most residential homes get a 60/80A feed and small businesses get 100/120A feed, 305 seems to be way too high to power was is essentially a 100m2 kitchen

30kW on a trailer car is ~120A @ 230VAC. I know they need AC, Lighting, sockets etc, but 30kW seems like a lot to me.


To put in real money, at an average mains electricity rate of 12p/kWh a 30kW trailer would cost ~£10,500/Year based on only an 8 hour service per day and a 70kW Kitchen car would be ~£25,000/Year

isn't the electricity generated from the engine as DC and then inverted to AC...? in that case, for a given wattage, where the voltage is much lower, the current is much higher.

 

[connormill]

isn't the electricity generated from the engine as DC and then inverted to AC...?

Not sure on that one - Likely to be generated in 3 phase AC

in that case, for a given wattage, where the voltage is much lower, the current is much higher.

Yes, For the wattage to stay the same if the Volts fall, the Amps rise and vice versa