ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[najaB]

Any idea of when the next few refurbished sets are appearing?

No.

Would new-build have been a better/quicker option?

No, and this isn't the thread for that discussion.

 

[47271]

Would new-build have been a better/quicker option?

Use this thread for that please:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/scotrail-hst-alternative-provision.175454/

 

[InvHst]

Since this December timetable came in have scotrail actually run a full weekday hst service so all 10 in service all day? I don't believe so and yet again today there are numerous short forms due to maintaince requirements I would be more concerned that come may this year the list of hst services rise dramatically and they simply won't be ready

 

[Mingulay]

Since this December timetable came in have scotrail actually run a full weekday hst service so all 10 in service all day? I don't believe so and yet again today there are numerous short forms due to maintaince requirements I would be more concerned that come may this year the list of hst services rise dramatically and they simply won't be ready

It does seem to be a very rare sight an HST moving! . Poor Inverness passengers today at Dunblane at just before 8. Could not get middle unit 170 unit to start Going to be a slow run to Inverness on 2 engines

 

[najaB]

It does seem to be a very rare sight an HST moving!

I've not looked at booked v actually ran percentages, but they're relatively common through Dundee.

 

[Journeyman]

Since this December timetable came in have scotrail actually run a full weekday hst service so all 10 in service all day? I don't believe so and yet again today there are numerous short forms due to maintaince requirements I would be more concerned that come may this year the list of hst services rise dramatically and they simply won't be ready

Put it this way - I arrive at Queen Street each morning just prior to the departure of the 08.38 to Aberdeen, and I think it's been an HST twice. 170 again this morning.

 

[jamieintercity]

This Ely to Doncaster move seem to have ran yesterday
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P86000/2019/01/23/advanced
I wonder if it was more MK3s been modified for scotrail?

Also, how many PCs are at Loughborough for repaint etc and when are due more refurbished sets?

 

[43096]

Also, how many PCs are at Loughborough for repaint etc and when are due more refurbished sets?

Eight power cars are at Brush currently. 26 completed so far, with 20 yet to go in, so the power car programme is ahead of trailer car introduction.

 

[nat67]

Eight power cars are at Brush currently. 26 completed so far, with 20 yet to go in, so the power car programme is ahead of trailer car introduction.

But is it not quicker to do a pair of PC's rather than 4 Mk3's as there wouldn't be as much to do on the power cars.

 

[43096]

But is it not quicker to do a pair of PC's rather than 4 Mk3's as there wouldn't be as much to do on the power cars.

Depends how many people you have working on them and what work is being done.

 

[jingsmonty]

Since this December timetable came in have scotrail actually run a full weekday hst service so all 10 in service all day? I don't believe so and yet again today there are numerous short forms due to maintaince requirements I would be more concerned that come may this year the list of hst services rise dramatically and they simply won't be ready

Sets have been removed for dedicated training trains as well (not 100% sure how many - there is definetly a dedicated set at Inverness).

 

[43096]

Sets have been removed for dedicated training trains as well (not 100% sure how many - there is definetly a dedicated set at Inverness).

There have been dedicated training sets from the start. Of the current fleet, sets HA01-10 are the service slam-door sets, HA11/12 are the training sets and HA25/26 the two sliding door sets. Even discounting HA11/12 and HA25 as being for training, it still ought to be possible to field 10 sets per day from the other 11. It's not like there is a shortage of power cars, either: there are 44 power cars in Scotland, of which they require 26 per day to resource 10 passenger sets and 3 training sets, or just 59% availability.

 

[jingsmonty]

There have been dedicated training sets from the start. Of the current fleet, sets HA01-10 are the service slam-door sets, HA11/12 are the training sets and HA25/26 the two sliding door sets. Even discounting HA11/12 and HA25 as being for training, it still ought to be possible to field 10 sets per day from the other 11. It's not like there is a shortage of power cars, either: there are 44 power cars in Scotland, of which they require 26 per day to resource 10 passenger sets and 3 training sets, or just 59% availability.

Extra sets were pulled to reinstate the training trains - from the new timetable, the training trains were stopped & drivers were supposed to do practical training on passenger trains...which didn't work out very well (to say the least)! At least some of the non availability has been caused by a lack of trained crews (both drivers & conductors), not just maintenance issues - this is why the training trains were reinstated, to try & get more traincrews able to work HST services.

I know for a fact that the reinstatement of the training trains has resulted in less sets being available for passenger service - there were NO training trains as of 11/12/18, until recently.

I believe HA25 (2nd refurbished set) is bei g used as the Perth training set, it has a path on the HML. Might be handy for Inverness crews to receive training on the refurbished set

 

[AndrewE]

You would think that a pair of Scottish power cars (lots available, apparently) together with almost any Mk III coaches fit to run would work as a (slam door) training train. As long as the heating and lighting worked in one of them they could pretend that was the passenger accommodation, and staff training for the upgrade to power doors would then be a relatively short job.

 

[43096]

You would think that a pair of Scottish power cars (lots available, apparently) together with almost any Mk III coaches fit to run would work as a (slam door) training train. As long as the heating and lighting worked in one of them they could pretend that was the passenger accommodation, and staff training for the upgrade to power doors would then be a relatively short job.

That is what sets HA11/12 are for. They are not for passenger service.

 

[najaB]

You would think that a pair of Scottish power cars (lots available, apparently) together with almost any Mk III coaches fit to run would work as a (slam door) training train.

Remember, training isn't just limited by the available stock - ensuring that drivers get their rest days and fitting the training paths around live traffic can be problematic as well

 

[AndrewE]

That is what sets HA11/12 are for. They are not for passenger service.

which is why I didn't understand

Extra sets were pulled to reinstate the training trains -
...
I know for a fact that the reinstatement of the training trains has resulted in less sets being available for passenger service - there were NO training trains as of 11/12/18, until recently.
I believe HA25 (2nd refurbished set) is bei g used as the Perth training set, it has a path on the HML. Might be handy for Inverness crews to receive training on the refurbished set

 

[jingsmonty]

You would think that a pair of Scottish power cars (lots available, apparently) together with almost any Mk III coaches fit to run would work as a (slam door) training train. As long as the heating and lighting worked in one of them they could pretend that was the passenger accommodation, and staff training for the upgrade to power doors would then be a relatively short job.

The 'relatively short job' is probably more involved than you (or I) may think - it would involve one door working, door isolation and whatever other technical differences there are between 'classic' & refurbished coaches. Not to mention the training that the Hospitality staff will need on the buffet...

Drivers will also require training on the power doors, as we will be responsible for checking them during preparation/safety checks (we don't do the slam doors).

I can't say where sets HA11/12 are, I don't know, to be honest! There are more than 2 training trains out just now, I do know that.

 

[jingsmonty]

Remember, training isn't just limited by the available stock - ensuring that drivers get their rest days and fitting the training paths around live traffic can be problematic as well

This is exactly right - we are regularly asked to work rest days just now, partly to cover for training. Pathing can be tight as well (remember, most of the HML is single track - paths are tight anyway, without adding training trains into the mix)

 

[jingsmonty]

You would think that a pair of Scottish power cars (lots available, apparently) together with almost any Mk III coaches fit to run would work as a (slam door) training train. As long as the heating and lighting worked in one of them they could pretend that was the passenger accommodation, and staff training for the upgrade to power doors would then be a relatively short job.

There should be a surplus of HST trailer coaches out there, but the training trains are a short-term measure, so it makes sense to me to use sets which can quickly re-enter passenger traffic in a few weeks time

 

[AndrewE]

The 'relatively short job' is probably more involved than you (or I) may think - it would involve one door working, door isolation and whatever other technical differences there are between 'classic' & refurbished coaches. Not to mention the training that the Hospitality staff will need on the buffet...
Drivers will also require training on the power doors, as we will be responsible for checking them during preparation/safety checks (we don't do the slam doors).

That "relatively short job" is quite a way into the future, though, and it seems that there is a shortage of seating capacity right now. At least if traincrews are trained and familiar with shortened HSTs then the bulk of the training will have been done. I don't even think we have a prediction for the arrival of the third upgraded set yet, so classic sets are going to be doing the bulk of the work for quite a while.

I can't say where sets HA11/12 are, I don't know, to be honest! There are more than 2 training trains out just now, I do know that.

That is good news. Presumably one upgraded set and several classics.

 

[jingsmonty]

I don't think refurbished sets 3 to 7 are that far away...how far away is anyone's guess though!

That "relatively short job" is quite a way into the future, though, and it seems that there is a shortage of seating capacity right now. At least if traincrews are trained and familiar with shortened HSTs then the bulk of the training will have been done. I don't even think we have a prediction for the arrival of the third upgraded set yet, so classic sets are going to be doing the bulk of the work for quite a while.That is good news. Presumably one upgraded set and several classics.

 

[chuff chuff]

That "relatively short job" is quite a way into the future, though, and it seems that there is a shortage of seating capacity right now. At least if traincrews are trained and familiar with shortened HSTs then the bulk of the training will have been done. I don't even think we have a prediction for the arrival of the third upgraded set yet, so classic sets are going to be doing the bulk of the work for quite a while.That is good news. Presumably one upgraded set and several classics.

Well the refurb had to be terminated at Dundee and passengers off loaded due to shortage of trained crew.

 

[433N]

When problems first arose at the timetable change, people said that things would improve in a few weeks. But I have to say, that I can't really say that I see more HSTs than I did then.

This really looks like a severe case of under-staffing and a staff who have decided that they might quite like the odd day off which doesn't involve trains or training.

 

[nat67]

How long does it take to train a driver on new (old) rolling stock?

Was it the case that driver training had been too slow due to training been taken place on two separate types of MK3?

If Wabtec had rolled out the first set months ahead of when it did come out there wouldn't have been such a problem as this?

 

[najaB]

If Wabtec had rolled out the first set months ahead of when it did come out there wouldn't have been such a problem as this?

Correct.

 

[VioletEclipse]

Correct.

I never expect stock to enter service when they are meant to, as it often takes a lot longer, as Scotrail are unwillingly demonstrating.

 

[hexagon789]

How long does it take to train a driver on new (old) rolling stock?

I think it can be 3-6 months depending on the stock.

 

[chuff chuff]

Conversion onto HST with scotrail,one week static two weeks running out with twenty hours driving IIRC add another day for the refurbished set.

 

[hexagon789]

Conversion onto HST with scotrail,one week static two weeks running out with twenty hours driving IIRC add another day for the refurbished set.

Doesn't seem like a lot. Perhaps I'm getting mixed up with general training from scratch as it were.