ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[43096]

I calculate that Wabtec will need to deliver 1.85 sets per week, every week from now until the end of year to enable them to complete the delivery programme by the end of 2019..

Would anyone put a bet on that?

No because you have got your calculation the wrong way round. It's one set every 1.87 weeks.

 

[samuelmorris]

There you go then, 13.4 days per set, or 2.85 days per vehicle. About 10x the rate of progress achieved up to now?

 

[43096]

43021/145 currently working 0S04 1000 Brush-Haymarket after overhaul.

 

[InvHst]

See the 944 was a hst from Ness but the 1255 was a hst but has failed at carrbridge any idea why doesn't look good amount of failures that have happened.

 

[Highlandspring]

See the 944 was a hst from Ness but the 1255 was a hst but has failed at carrbridge any idea why doesn't look good amount of failures that have happened.

43143 speedometer defect. ScotRail has started taking steps to completely remove the ATP equipment which is causing these issues from the powercars which should greatly reduce the number of speedometer faults in future.

 

[mullac30]

See the 944 was a hst from Ness but the 1255 was a hst but has failed at carrbridge any idea why doesn't look good amount of failures that have happened.

I was on the 1255 last week, which also failed at Aviemore, reliablity is pretty appaling compared to the 170s. I was also on another set in a very leaky and worn MK3 on Friday, its clear they haven't seen much love since leaving GWR.

 

[jingsmonty]

I calculate that Wabtec will need to deliver 1.85 sets per week, every week from now until the end of year to enable them to complete the delivery programme by the end of 2019..

Would anyone put a bet on that?

The refurbished set situation should improve shortly - Set 3 is due to be released imminently, with sets 4-7 to follow. Sets 8 & 9 have entered Wabtec. Not ideal, but should enable the use of 'Classic' sets to be reduced in the near future. Hopefully, the experience gained with the work to date will speed things up for the rest of the coaches.

The situation to date has been, quite frankly, unacceptable - but both Scotrail & Wabtec have been pretty definite that all the refurbished sets will be completed this year. That's a tall order, but one that does seem to be taken seriously now (see Wabtec having a recruitment drive for the Kilmarnock site).

Scotrail seem to be pretty clear about this (for once). That's a definite, clear target, which (as I'm sure Scotrail will know, will come back to haunt them if it isn't met) Scotrail must be reasonably confident that this will happen. Therefore, I'll hold off on the negativity unless THIS target isn't met!

We will have to wait and see. Personally, I can't wait to see a refurbished set 'in the flesh' - it will get rid of the major issues of station dwell times & retention tanks which wreck the timings of the 'Classic' sets & offer the passengers a huge upgrade in the whole travel experience.

 

[jingsmonty]

43143 speedometer defect. ScotRail has started taking steps to completely remove the ATP equipment which is causing these issues from the powercars which should greatly reduce the number of speedometer faults in future.

This is exactly right - the Speedometers are linked to the ATP equipment, which has been isolated but left in situ - this has caused a lot of problems, therefore the current plan is to completely remove the ATP speedo & replace it with one that works from an axle probe - but this is quite a major job (there was a picture on the Scotrail staff social media which showed all the equipment & wiring which was affected - it was a lot!).

 

[chuff chuff]

This is exactly right - the Speedometers are linked to the ATP equipment, which has been isolated but left in situ - this has caused a lot of problems, therefore the current plan is to completely remove the ATP speedo & replace it with one that works from an axle probe - but this is quite a major job (there was a picture on the Scotrail staff social media which showed all the equipment & wiring which was affected - it was a lot!).

Yeah but this should been done when the power cars were in at Brush rather than try and save a couple of bucks whilst isolating the ATP and putting a plate over the ATP stuff on the desk.

 

[43096]

This is exactly right - the Speedometers are linked to the ATP equipment, which has been isolated but left in situ - this has caused a lot of problems, therefore the current plan is to completely remove the ATP speedo & replace it with one that works from an axle probe - but this is quite a major job (there was a picture on the Scotrail staff social media which showed all the equipment & wiring which was affected - it was a lot!).

Essentially, ScotRail are learning the hard way because of their zero knowledge on HSTs. Issues with ATP were a pretty predictable outcome. Likewise, I wouldn't be surprised if the GEC traction motors bite them on the backside as well.

 

[Craig2601]

Definitely some HSTs running on the Highland Mainline today - one passed on the platform at Newtonmore heading to Inverness and they seemed to be running on RealTime Trains too when checked.

 

[Stoney1979]

I was on the 1255 last week, which also failed at Aviemore, reliablity is pretty appaling compared to the 170s. I was also on another set in a very leaky and worn MK3 on Friday, its clear they haven't seen much love since leaving GWR.

What is your evidence, other than personal anecdotal experience, that the HSTs are less reliable than the 170s? Some macro facts and figures, please. This meaning: the number of HSTs on the rails that have failed, along with the equivalent 170 stats.

 

[InOban]

'The refurbished set situation should improve shortly - Set 3 is due to be released imminently, with sets 4-7 to follow. Sets 8 & 9 have entered Wabtec. Not ideal, but should enable the use of 'Classic' sets to be reduced in the near future. Hopefully, the experience gained with the work to date will speed things up for the rest of the coaches.'

Set 3 has been imminent for at least a month.. Stretches the meaning of 'imminent'

 

[jingsmonty]

Yeah but this should been done when the power cars were in at Brush rather than try and save a couple of bucks whilst isolating the ATP and putting a plate over the ATP stuff on the desk.

I'm sure Scotrail would agree with you now! Hindsight's a great thing.... Personally, I'd agree - it would have made sense to do that work during the refurb, but nobody probably thought that it would be an issue. There's a lesson there!

I hope you're wrong about the GEC motors, but I suspect you may not be... Hopefully, the easier life the power cars will have in Scotland will help

 

[jingsmonty]

'The refurbished set situation should improve shortly - Set 3 is due to be released imminently, with sets 4-7 to follow. Sets 8 & 9 have entered Wabtec. Not ideal, but should enable the use of 'Classic' sets to be reduced in the near future. Hopefully, the experience gained with the work to date will speed things up for the rest of the coaches.'

Set 3 has been imminent for at least a month.. Stretches the meaning of 'imminent'

I'm just going by what we've heard internally....I want to see this set in Scotland ASAP! I'm not 100% sure of what's happening with Set 2 just now...anyone know?

 

[chuff chuff]

I'm just going by what we've heard internally....I want to see this set in Scotland ASAP! I'm not 100% sure of what's happening with Set 2 just now...anyone know?

Last I heard it was in haymarket probably due an exam or something.

 

[47271]

What is your evidence, other than personal anecdotal experience, that the HSTs are less reliable than the 170s? Some macro facts and figures, please. This meaning: the number of HSTs on the rails that have failed, along with the equivalent 170 stats.

Quite so, we can all easily imagine that they're less reliable than 170s but you can be sure that Scotrail won't be putting out a press release to that effect.

This has been quoted on this thread several times before, but the established facts are that this time last year Modern Railways published the following information on miles per incident, someone else may have more up to date figures:

ScotRail 170s 13,319 MTIN
GWR HSTs 6,578 MTIN

I've no idea whether the current Scotrail HST failure rate is worse than that, but given the speedo issue we can be pretty sure that it isn't better.

 

[Northhighland]

This is exactly right - the Speedometers are linked to the ATP equipment, which has been isolated but left in situ - this has caused a lot of problems, therefore the current plan is to completely remove the ATP speedo & replace it with one that works from an axle probe - but this is quite a major job (there was a picture on the Scotrail staff social media which showed all the equipment & wiring which was affected - it was a lot!).

Concerning that this appears to be an issue. Surely with the wealth ofHST experience that exists this type of thing should have been thought through. After 40 years of operation knowledge should be through.

 

[mcmad]

Concerning that this appears to be an issue. Surely with the wealth ofHST experience that exists this type of thing should have been thought through. After 40 years of operation knowledge should be through.

But Scotrail don't. In todays fragmented 40 years of operation means little if its not within the TOC

 

[route101]

Single 158 replacing our platform 3 dormant HST, on the 14.42 Aberdeen to Queen Street.

Luckily not full and standing, but with one working toilet and the heating seemingly stuck on full blast (which I must admit made for an excellent sleep for most of us passengers to begin with!) it looks like the ScotRail Twitter team is going to have to brace itself from the inevitable raging punters on Twitter, for the northbound working.

Whilst things seemed to have been improving it is been by no means a drastic one!

Had a 170 on that service a few weeks ago , was fairly full though it omits Stonehaven .Was busier from Dundee to Glasgow

 

[Highland37]

What is your evidence, other than personal anecdotal experience, that the HSTs are less reliable than the 170s? Some macro facts and figures, please. This meaning: the number of HSTs on the rails that have failed, along with the equivalent 170 stats.

My partner travels down to Glasgow every week and since the HSTs have appeared, at least half of the trains are late in my experience

 

[43096]

I hope you're wrong about the GEC motors, but I suspect you may not be... Hopefully, the easier life the power cars will have in Scotland will help

It might appear to help, but unless they are on top of the issue, then there will be problems. The issues typically first become apparent when a GEC power car gets power-to-earth faults, usually at speeds of 110mph or more. Landore depot were FGW's electrical experts so the GEC cars were based there from the early 2000s and they generally kept the problem in check. Now you can see a fundamental issue with ScotRail - they never get above 100mph. So the problem may remain undetected until the point where the motor(s) go bang big style. It is to be hoped ScotRail knew about this and have a suitable preventative regime in place - and it's not like they can ask Landore for advice now, either.

 

[jingsmonty]

My partner travels down to Glasgow every week and since the HSTs have appeared, at least half of the trains are late in my experience

The main issue with timekeeping (as has been said many times) is specifically with the 'Classic' sets - the slam doors absolutely kill the station dwell times, they are a complete nightmare for the Conductors to work with, as far as dispatch/station duties are concerned. This isn't reflected in the timetable.

The refurbished sets will solve this - it will be like a longer, more luxurious & much faster 170, as far as dispatch/station duties are concerned!

And that's not mentioning the 'brown stuff hitting the track'....

 

[jingsmonty]

It might appear to help, but unless they are on top of the issue, then there will be problems. The issues typically first become apparent when a GEC power car gets power-to-earth faults, usually at speeds of 110mph or more. Landore depot were FGW's electrical experts so the GEC cars were based there from the early 2000s and they generally kept the problem in check. Now you can see a fundamental issue with ScotRail - they never get above 100mph. So the problem may remain undetected until the point where the motor(s) go bang big style. It is to be hoped ScotRail knew about this and have a suitable preventative regime in place - and it's not like they can ask Landore for advice now, either.

Hard to believe that this issue still exists, nearly 40 years after they were built!

 

[GLC]

This is exactly right - the Speedometers are linked to the ATP equipment, which has been isolated but left in situ - this has caused a lot of problems, therefore the current plan is to completely remove the ATP speedo & replace it with one that works from an axle probe - but this is quite a major job (there was a picture on the Scotrail staff social media which showed all the equipment & wiring which was affected - it was a lot!).

I am a software engineer, so I know all about seemingly simple patches causing all sorts of problems down the line! But, I’m surprised that an isolated piece of equipment can still effect other parts of a train. I had just assumed that for safety reasons, any isolation of a component would have to be pretty watertight for it to be allowed into service. Atleast the problems are being rectified the thorough way now

 

[jingsmonty]

I am a software engineer, so I know all about seemingly simple patches causing all sorts of problems down the line! But, I’m surprised that an isolated piece of equipment can still effect other parts of a train. I had just assumed that for safety reasons, any isolation of a component would have to be pretty watertight for it to be allowed into service. Atleast the problems are being rectified the thorough way now

My knowledge of this sort of stuff is, to put it mildly, 'patchy' (I'm a driver, so I'm not involved with the maintenance side of things) - I'm definetly NOT a software engineer (or any sort of engineer, to be honest ).

But, I think it's to do with the speedo working off the ATP equipment, despite the ATP equipment itself being isolated. The 'fix' involves completely removing the ATP stuff & working the speedo (a different speedo) off an axle mounted probe (as most other trains operate, certainly older ones anyway). I saw a picture of the equipment that's being removed & it was a lot (a large forest of cabling & a couple of electronic module cabinets).

Incidentally, one of my colleagues said tgat if the speedo ever failed, to try tripping & resetting the circuit breaker for the ATP....!

 

[scotraildriver]

Incidentally, one of my colleagues said tgat if the speedo ever failed, to try tripping & resetting the circuit breaker for the ATP....![/QUOTE]


Yep that works. We were taught that on our training course. You can also reboot the ATP in the guards van which clears the fault but it's a bit of a faff.

 

[43096]

Hard to believe that this issue still exists, nearly 40 years after they were built!

Fundamental design flaw with the motors.

It just illustrates ScotRail's naivety with HSTs - they let Angel get away with giving them the GEC motors. If they'd known what they were doing they'd have insisted on Brush motors - there are/were enough power cars in the Angel GWR fleet to give ScotRail all Brush motors.

 

[Stoney1979]

Quite so, we can all easily imagine that they're less reliable than 170s but you can be sure that Scotrail won't be putting out a press release to that effect.

This has been quoted on this thread several times before, but the established facts are that this time last year Modern Railways published the following information on miles per incident, someone else may have more up to date figures:

ScotRail 170s 13,319 MTIN
GWR HSTs 6,578 MTIN

I've no idea whether the current Scotrail HST failure rate is worse than that, but given the speedo issue we can be pretty sure that it isn't better.

Yes, I have no doubt that the service has deteriorated, it's been well and publicly documented. What I'm trying to get at, at risk of going on the circular argument (again) and being moderated (again) is whether, or not, the deterioration is due to MECHANICAL failures of the HSTs (reburb or classic), or not - as compared to the 170s. I'm just looking for actual facts and data either way.

 

[InvHst]

Was the second set not in Perth doing static training? Or has it headed south to Haymarket for an exam didn't get much training on it did they?