ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[jingsmonty]

An increase to 15 sets are required in daily service from the May timetable. 10 classic and 5 refurbed with the classics reducing as more are delivered over the summer.

Ah, didn't know that, cheers. I thought the requirement for 10 sets was ongoing. I wonder what services are going over to HST operation in May

 

[hexagon789]

An increase to 15 sets are required in daily service from the May timetable. 10 classic and 5 refurbed with the classics reducing as more are delivered over the summer.

Presumably the services will still all be timed for 170s though? In case recourse to a 170/158 is necessary.

 

[Macwomble]

An increase to 15 sets are required in daily service from the May timetable.

Assume more 170s & 158s to "disappear"?

 

[DirtyJohn]

Why? Contractual reasons?

Deadline for those two sets, not sure of the implications if they don't get them out.

 

[43096]

Assume more 170s & 158s to "disappear"?

There are no more diesels to go elsewhere from the ScotRail fleet.

 

[DirtyJohn]

That sounds about right - not ideal, but it's tangible progress. Hopefully work will start on sets at Kilmarnock soon too

I think the Kilmarnock guys will be starting within the next 2 weeks.

 

[43096]

I think the Kilmarnock guys will be starting within the next 2 weeks.

That ties in with Wabtec’s statement that Kilmarnock would start work on them in quarter 2.

 

[jingsmonty]

Presumably the services will still all be timed for 170s though? In case recourse to a 170/158 is necessary.

Assume more 170s & 158s to "disappear"?

There isn't a great deal of difference, timing-wise, between a 170/158 & HST, mainly due the faster acceleration of a HST being more than offset by the horrendous dwell times at stations. This of course applies to classic sets only - the refurbished sets will make a positive impact, in lots of ways.

The HML is further crippled by the fact that HST can't use the differential speeds either. That definetly needs seriously looking at - as do the linespeeds on the Aberdeen - Inverness route.

 

[jingsmonty]

That ties in with Wabtec’s statement that Kilmarnock would start work on them in quarter 2.

That's good news & should help things along. Does anyone know if Kilmarnock will be concentrating on the Scotrail sets, or will they be doing some of the GWR/XC refurbishments too?

 

[hexagon789]

There isn't a great deal of difference, timing-wise, between a 170/158 & HST, mainly due the faster acceleration of a HST being more than offset by the horrendous dwell times at stations. This of course applies to classic sets only - the refurbished sets will make a positive impact, in lots of ways.

The HML is further crippled by the fact that HST can't use the differential speeds either. That definetly needs seriously looking at - as do the linespeeds on the Aberdeen - Inverness route.

I thought the HSTs were going to cut 10 mins off most journeys or is that more down to cutting stops?

Hopefully it can be done, once all the HSTs are in there won't be anything to use the SP speeds anyway will there?

Definitely, it's ridiculous that it's still only 70-75mph. I believe there were plans for 100mph running on some bits, no idea if that's coming to fruition.

 

[jingsmonty]

It's funny how you are talking about what services are going to be HST it's like in 1976 onwards when the Western hydraulics were being replaced. I wonder if any modern day cranks will go out for a last hurrah on a 170/158 Edinburgh-Inverness

Think I'll pass on that.... Mind you, I can remember being quite impressed with my 1st trip on a 158 back in 1990 when they were brand new...was Class 47s & Mk2 non aircon coaches before that.

Seriously though, after working during the summers on 170s as a Conductor, I certainly won't miss them

 

[jingsmonty]

I thought the HSTs were going to cut 10 mins off most journeys or is that more down to cutting stops?

Hopefully it can be done, once all the HSTs are in there won't be anything to use the SP speeds anyway will there?

Definitely, it's ridiculous that it's still only 70-75mph. I believe there were plans for 100mph running on some bits, no idea if that's coming to fruition.

I think (hope, anyway) that this is correct. The A2I route is 75mph max (& that's only the western part), but I do believe the signalling has been spaced for higher speeds.

There's a 100mph bit on the HML, but it's not very long. Worst bit of the differential SP speeds is the 60mph from the Garry viaduct towards Dalnaspidal - SP speed is 70mph (which 170/158 can't do anyway) & an HST does 60 up the hill, barely breaking sweat!

The Aviemore/Pitlochry resignalling is part of the HML improvement plan, hopefully the linespeeds will be looked at too - it would increase the capacity too, as any service increase would struggle right now

 

[Stoney1979]

There isn't a great deal of difference, timing-wise, between a 170/158 & HST, mainly due the faster acceleration of a HST being more than offset by the horrendous dwell times at stations. This of course applies to classic sets only - the refurbished sets will make a positive impact, in lots of ways.

The HML is further crippled by the fact that HST can't use the differential speeds either. That definetly needs seriously looking at - as do the linespeeds on the Aberdeen - Inverness route.

Excuse my ignorance, but what does "differential speeds" mean, and what's the practical impact of HSTs not being able to use them?

 

[43096]

That's good news & should help things along. Does anyone know if Kilmarnock will be concentrating on the Scotrail sets, or will they be doing some of the GWR/XC refurbishments too?

Wabtec’s statement only mentioned the ScotRail vehicles, which makes sense, even if only because it plays the political “local overhauled trains for local people” card rather well.

 

[Mag_seven]

Excuse my ignorance, but what does "differential speeds" mean

Different speed limits for different types of rolling stock.

 

[gsnedders]

Excuse my ignorance, but what does "differential speeds" mean, and what's the practical impact of HSTs not being able to use them?

Some speed limits depend on the type of stock. This can be for a variety of reasons: braking performance was the original reason, but more recently due to track loading (i.e., how much force the train exerts on the track) allowing lighter rolling stock to go faster due to not needing to be so worried about bridges and other structures.

 

[Stoney1979]

Some speed limits depend on the type of stock. This can be for a variety of reasons: braking performance was the original reason, but more recently due to track loading (i.e., how much force the train exerts on the track) allowing lighter rolling stock to go faster due to not needing to be so worried about bridges and other structures.

Thanks. So, overall, the HSTs are going slower than they otherwise could.

Why can't the HSTs use the upper limits, then? I guess they have to be tested/approved to go faster and haven't been so?

 

[najaB]

Excuse my ignorance, but what does "differential speeds" mean, and what's the practical impact of HSTs not being able to use them?

To expand on @gsnedders post, on the HML the differential speeds are only for 'Sprinter' type units (170s and 158s in this case), so HSTs can only use the lower 'standard' line speed limits. This means that for quite a few miles HSTs are limited to 10 to 15 mph less than the 170s are allowed to do.

 

[najaB]

Why can't the HSTs use the upper limits, then? I guess they have to be tested/approved to go faster and haven't been so?

Largely because there's never been a need to do the paperwork while there was only 1 HST per day each way. HSTs have superior braking to traditional loco-hauled stock and are Route Availability 5 and so are light on their feet compared to (other) locos.

 

[DirtyJohn]

That's good news & should help things along. Does anyone know if Kilmarnock will be concentrating on the Scotrail sets, or will they be doing some of the GWR/XC refurbishments too?

Just the Scotrail sets. GWR and XC will be staying at Doncaster.

 

[Stoney1979]

Largely because there's never been a need to do the paperwork while there was only 1 HST per day each way. HSTs have superior braking to traditional loco-hauled stock and are Route Availability 5 and so are light on their feet compared to (other) locos.

Right o, thanks. I've certainly noticed the LNER has a rather "leisurely" timetable on the HML - it has to be quite late-running to be "officially" late according to the timetable. The SR HSTs won't have that luxury though I imagine.

 

[jingsmonty]

Some speed limits depend on the type of stock. This can be for a variety of reasons: braking performance was the original reason, but more recently due to track loading (i.e., how much force the train exerts on the track) allowing lighter rolling stock to go faster due to not needing to be so worried about bridges and other structures.

Largely because there's never been a need to do the paperwork while there was only 1 HST per day each way. HSTs have superior braking to traditional loco-hauled stock and are Route Availability 5 and so are light on their feet compared to (other) locos.

Exactly, NajaB - it's just a pity that the differential speed boards were signed as 'SP' boards, rather than 'MU' boards - HSTs are passed for MU speeds. Technically, as RA5, they'd be cleared to run North of Inverness (RETB aside)!

 

[jingsmonty]

Right o, thanks. I've certainly noticed the LNER has a rather "leisurely" timetable on the HML - it has to be quite late-running to be "officially" late according to the timetable. The SR HSTs won't have that luxury though I imagine.

I think the LNER Southbound on the HML takes 2hrs dead to get to Perth - a 170 can do this, with an additional stop at Dunkeld & Birnam. I think the Northbound is the same.

 

[jingsmonty]

Just the Scotrail sets. GWR and XC will be staying at Doncaster.

Cheers, thanks

 

[jingsmonty]

To expand on @gsnedders post, on the HML the differential speeds are only for 'Sprinter' type units (170s and 158s in this case), so HSTs can only use the lower 'standard' line speed limits. This means that for quite a few miles HSTs are limited to 10 to 15 mph less than the 170s are allowed to do.

It's frustrating, as often the 170s/158s can't even reach or maintain the higher speeds anyway

 

[jingsmonty]

Right o, thanks. I've certainly noticed the LNER has a rather "leisurely" timetable on the HML - it has to be quite late-running to be "officially" late according to the timetable. The SR HSTs won't have that luxury though I imagine.

The LNER timings probably are padded a bit to make up for any delays further South. If it's late into Inverness, it can mess up the evening shunts/fuelling moves in & out of the station

 

[hexagon789]

I think (hope, anyway) that this is correct. The A2I route is 75mph max (& that's only the western part), but I do believe the signalling has been spaced for higher speeds.

I read a document proposing higher speeds (using HST differentials), can't find it now sadly, but it did note that 100mph was possible on the 75mph stretches between Elgin and Inverness. The route is currently 70 Aberdeen-Elgin and 75 Elgin-Aberdeen; been like that for decades.

 

[Stoney1979]

The LNER timings probably are padded a bit to make up for any delays further South. If it's late into Inverness, it can mess up the evening shunts/fuelling moves in & out of the station

Yes, not to mention the delay-repay issue. I've seen it be ca. 30 mins late leaving Edinburgh, but still arrive in Inverness on time. Not all HML of course, but the timetable is certainly generous to it.

 

[Macwomble]

There are no more diesels to go elsewhere from the ScotRail fleet.

OK, just wondered...given this photo & comment (from Railscot)
https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/68/104/

 

[43096]

OK, just wondered...given this photo & comment (from Railscot)
https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/68/104/

Ah yes, the remaining Eversholt 170s (170416-420). They were supposed to move to GTR / Southern but evidently they do not want them, hence why they got unbranded livery at their last repaints. Last I saw they were meant to be staying with ScotRail long term, but I can’t find a reference to that. They are certainly not promised anywhere else as yet, so can stay with ScotRail.