ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[jingsmonty]

I read a document proposing higher speeds (using HST differentials), can't find it now sadly, but it did note that 100mph was possible on the 75mph stretches between Elgin and Inverness. The route is currently 70 Aberdeen-Elgin and 75 Elgin-Aberdeen; been like that for decades.

Aye, generally that's largely the case. Funnily enough, I've heard the same thing re the 75mph sections too

 

[jingsmonty]

Ah yes, the remaining Eversholt 170s (170416-420). They were supposed to move to GTR / Southern but evidently they do not want them, hence why they got unbranded livery at their last repaints. Last I saw they were meant to be staying with ScotRail long term, but I can’t find a reference to that. They are certainly not promised anywhere else as yet, so can stay with ScotRail.

Hope not, Scotrail could do with them just now

 

[hexagon789]

Aye, generally that's largely the case. Funnily enough, I've heard the same thing re the 75mph sections too

I'm sure it was supposed to be part of the I2A improvements.

Certainly, I can't see how the HSTs can deliver a 2 hours journey time with the current stops without increasing linespeed.

 

[Macwomble]

Ah yes, the remaining Eversholt 170s (170416-420). They were supposed to move to GTR / Southern but evidently they do not want them, hence why they got unbranded livery at their last repaints. Last I saw they were meant to be staying with ScotRail long term, but I can’t find a reference to that. They are certainly not promised anywhere else as yet, so can stay with ScotRail.

Cheers, thanks for the info.

 

[jingsmonty]

I'm sure it was supposed to be part of the I2A improvements.

Certainly, I can't see how the HSTs can deliver a 2 hours journey time with the current stops without increasing linespeed.

Me neither. Certainly not with classic stock (although that was never part of the original plans anyway). There's a definite need for a serious look at the whole infrastructure. A lot of track renewal has taken place over the past few years, so could see a potential to increase linespeeds

 

[hexagon789]

Me neither. Certainly not with classic stock (although that was never part of the original plans anyway). There's a definite need for a serious look at the whole infrastructure. A lot of track renewal has taken place over the past few years, so could see a potential to increase linespeeds

Well I hope they do, it's long overdue. Though I think getting the HSTs first is half the battle

 

[jingsmonty]

Well I hope they do, it's long overdue. Though I think getting the HSTs first is half the battle

To be honest, it could happen now. It's definetly long overdue, right enough! Maybe things may happen once the Inverurie to Aberdeen redoubling work is completed. No need to wait for HSTs to fully take over.

 

[computerSaysNo]

I'm sure it was supposed to be part of the I2A improvements.

Certainly, I can't see how the HSTs can deliver a 2 hours journey time with the current stops without increasing linespeed.

What's going to happen with the new stations at Dalcross (Inverness Airport) and Kintore, will these be served by services doing the full Aberdeen to Inverness run, or just by the local Inverness to Elgin and Inverurie to Aberdeen services?

 

[RLBH]

I read a document proposing higher speeds (using HST differentials), can't find it now sadly, but it did note that 100mph was possible on the 75mph stretches between Elgin and Inverness. The route is currently 70 Aberdeen-Elgin and 75 Elgin-Aberdeen; been like that for decades.

West of Elgin, the line seems to have been laid out across generally flat land by an engineer whose instrument box contained a straightedge, pencil and not a lot else; from an alignment point of view, I doubt there'd be any difficulty with higher speeds. There is of course a lot more to it than just alignment. All the original structures and trackbed were also laid out for dual track througout, though the second track has never been laid.

Once the Inter7City network is fully handed over to HSTs, I presume that a general acceleration of services across the timetable is on the cards?

 

[jingsmonty]

What's going to happen with the new stations at Dalcross (Inverness Airport) and Kintore, will these be served by services doing the full Aberdeen to Inverness run, or just by the local Inverness to Elgin and Inverurie to Aberdeen services?

That's the 6 million dollar question - short answer is: I don't know! Some of us have wondered, but we've not heard anything definite. Certainly, the HST would make 2 extra station stops less problematic, due to the far superior acceleration. Kintore will also (eventually) be on double track.

It may be that Dalcross is served by all trains & Kintore by Inverurie - Montrose 'stoppers'. Or not.

There doesn't seem to be anything much happening with these 2 stations just now. Think the original plan for Dalcross was a single platform, but was upgraded to a double platform/passing loop - again, that's a guess/rumour.

 

[jingsmonty]

West of Elgin, the line seems to have been laid out across generally flat land by an engineer whose instrument box contained a straightedge, pencil and not a lot else; from an alignment point of view, I doubt there'd be any difficulty with higher speeds. There is of course a lot more to it than just alignment. All the original structures and trackbed were also laid out for dual track througout, though the second track has never been laid.

Once the Inter7City network is fully handed over to HSTs, I presume that a general acceleration of services across the timetable is on the cards?

Also, a lot (in fact, most) of the jointed track has been relaid with CWR - quite recently too. Only bits of jointed track that remain are just West of Huntly & the double section from Kennethmont to Insch.

The main issue may be signal spacings on the sections that haven't been resignalled, although I don't think that may be insurmountable. There's also more than a few User Worked Crossings, for farms, etc. Again, we have these on the HML too (which has some higher speeds). May mean resighting whistle boards, etc.

 

[InOban]

I understood that Kintore was to be largely built during this summer's blockade for completion of the redoubling.

 

[BRX]

Inverness to Aberdeen is such a miserable drive by car, you'd think there must be quite a bit of potential to capture a lot of extra custom given a combination of comfortable trains and reduced journey times.

 

[hexagon789]

To be honest, it could happen now. It's definetly long overdue, right enough! Maybe things may happen once the Inverurie to Aberdeen redoubling work is completed. No need to wait for HSTs to fully take over.

Perhaps no need, but hopefully it will happen!

West of Elgin, the line seems to have been laid out across generally flat land by an engineer whose instrument box contained a straightedge, pencil and not a lot else; from an alignment point of view, I doubt there'd be any difficulty with higher speeds. There is of course a lot more to it than just alignment. All the original structures and trackbed were also laid out for dual track througout, though the second track has never been laid.

Once the Inter7City network is fully handed over to HSTs, I presume that a general acceleration of services across the timetable is on the cards?

Supposed to be in think 10 mins on average Glasgow-Aberdeen; 13 mins Glasgow-Inverness IIRC. Plus, standard journey time of 2 hrs Inverness-Aberdeen with HSTs I believe, though I'm sure that was based on speed limit increases.

What's going to happen with the new stations at Dalcross (Inverness Airport) and Kintore, will these be served by services doing the full Aberdeen to Inverness run, or just by the local Inverness to Elgin and Inverurie to Aberdeen services?

No idea I'm afraid. The Inverness-Aberdeen were supposed to be 2 hours will calls at all stations as now, though whether that includes Kintore...

 

[Clansman]

Hope not, Scotrail could do with them just now

...even in the tatty state that they are currently in!

 

[jingsmonty]

Inverness to Aberdeen is such a miserable drive by car, you'd think there must be quite a bit of potential to capture a lot of extra custom given a combination of comfortable trains and reduced journey times.

Most definetly - probably goes some way to explaining why the line remained almost as a working museum for so long. It's less than 2 Years since we stopped having to do manual Token exchanges! There were a lot of passengers lost when the Dyce - Aberdeen redoubling closure last summer was on & I'm not convinced they've all returned yet. The current level of service is not the best either - cancelled local trains & short formed sets . Can only hope that once all the work is complete & we have a fleet of refurbished HSTs, along with the local trains at either end, that the passenger numbers will climb. A refurbished HST, doing the trip in 2hrs, would be a compelling argument for rail travel (I think the bus can take up to 3.5hrs!).

 

[jingsmonty]

I understood that Kintore was to be largely built during this summer's blockade for completion of the redoubling.

That would make sense - I don't think it's officially part of the line upgrade/redoubling project though, but a separate improvement (as is Dalcross). You'd think that common sense would prevail though...

 

[Northhighland]

Most definetly - probably goes some way to explaining why the line remained almost as a working museum for so long. It's less than 2 Years since we stopped having to do manual Token exchanges! There were a lot of passengers lost when the Dyce - Aberdeen redoubling closure last summer was on & I'm not convinced they've all returned yet. The current level of service is not the best either - cancelled local trains & short formed sets . Can only hope that once all the work is complete & we have a fleet of refurbished HSTs, along with the local trains at either end, that the passenger numbers will climb. A refurbished HST, doing the trip in 2hrs, would be a compelling argument for rail travel (I think the bus can take up to 3.5hrs!).

You are spot on. The closure last year did put people back on the road but the road works on the A96 would probably put a lot back. I certainly drove for the duration of the blockade but soon was sick of the road. HST will improve this service once it is reliably being delivered. There is huge potential to increase passenger numbers on this route as with the HML. 2 hours reliably and predictably delivered would soon see numbers increasing.

 

[BRX]

Most definetly - probably goes some way to explaining why the line remained almost as a working museum for so long. It's less than 2 Years since we stopped having to do manual Token exchanges! There were a lot of passengers lost when the Dyce - Aberdeen redoubling closure last summer was on & I'm not convinced they've all returned yet. The current level of service is not the best either - cancelled local trains & short formed sets . Can only hope that once all the work is complete & we have a fleet of refurbished HSTs, along with the local trains at either end, that the passenger numbers will climb. A refurbished HST, doing the trip in 2hrs, would be a compelling argument for rail travel (I think the bus can take up to 3.5hrs!).

It's not a route I have reason to use very often - the last time I travelled it was on diversion when the HML was closed by bad weather a couple of years back - and was quite surprised to see there were still manual tokens being handed over!

 

[InOban]

Inverness to Aberdeen is such a miserable drive by car, you'd think there must be quite a bit of potential to capture a lot of extra custom given a combination of comfortable trains and reduced journey times.

But the government plans to make it into a dual carriageway..

 

[matchmaker]

It's not a route I have reason to use very often - the last time I travelled it was on diversion when the HML was closed by bad weather a couple of years back - and was quite surprised to see there were still manual tokens being handed over!

Ironically, before manual token exchange there was automatic token exchange! Progress...

 

[jingsmonty]

But the government plans to make it into a dual carriageway..

Not until 2030 though, I believe. Dualling of the A96 is a long way off yet.

 

[jingsmonty]

It's not a route I have reason to use very often - the last time I travelled it was on diversion when the HML was closed by bad weather a couple of years back - and was quite surprised to see there were still manual tokens being handed over!

Well, that's history now - you'll notice quite a few changes since then. Including a brand new station & layout at Forres!

 

[jingsmonty]

You are spot on. The closure last year did put people back on the road but the road works on the A96 would probably put a lot back. I certainly drove for the duration of the blockade but soon was sick of the road. HST will improve this service once it is reliably being delivered. There is huge potential to increase passenger numbers on this route as with the HML. 2 hours reliably and predictably delivered would soon see numbers increasing.

The reduction in passenger numbers is quite noticeable - I remember working the route as a Conductor a good few years ago. I can remember the 0554 Inverness - Aberdeen being full & standing as a 5 car. Now it's an HST, regularly substituted as a 3 car 170, which doesn't seem to be any busier. Admittedly, some of this would have been due to the general downturn in the oil industry, but the closure last year did hit the numbers.

 

[theblackwatch]

We seem to be drifting away from the subject of this discussion.

 

[kkong]

That's the 6 million dollar question - short answer is: I don't know! Some of us have wondered, but we've not heard anything definite. Certainly, the HST would make 2 extra station stops less problematic, due to the far superior acceleration. Kintore will also (eventually) be on double track.

Per NR website:

• Increased reliability and no detriment to journey time between Inverness and Aberdeen (even allowing for new station stops at Kintore and Inverness Airport).

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...tes/scotland/aberdeen-inverness-improvements/

 

[jingsmonty]

Per NR website:

• Increased reliability and no detriment to journey time between Inverness and Aberdeen (even allowing for new station stops at Kintore and Inverness Airport).

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...tes/scotland/aberdeen-inverness-improvements/

Cool. Refurbished HSTs & improved journey times will make a huge difference to this route, neglected for years.

 

[Class83]

Is there a date for when Scotrail expect to have all Inter7City services* operated by HSTs either in their Classic or Refurbished form as there still seem to be quite a few 170s & 158s on these routes? Also, when is the deadline for them to ask for permission to use the Classics after December? I'm assuming this is almost inevitable now.

*excluding E-G which is 385s

 

[hexagon789]

Is there a date for when Scotrail expect to have all Inter7City services* operated by HSTs either in their Classic or Refurbished form as there still seem to be quite a few 170s & 158s on these routes? Also, when is the deadline for them to ask for permission to use the Classics after December? I'm assuming this is almost inevitable now.

*excluding E-G which is 385s

Supposed to have all the refurbished sets if not in traffic I presume at least finished by this December!

 

[jingsmonty]

Supposed to have all the refurbished sets if not in traffic I presume at least finished by this December!

That's the announced intention. Scotrail were defenite about that. All I can say is that it will require a seriously increased output from Wabtec!