ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[43096]

Any idea why they didn't use the emergency stops?

I heard apparently they tried local stop and emergency stop but to no avail.The way we've been told to deal them in this sort of situation is to close the valve on the fuel pump on the underside.

“chuff chuff” is correct. If this was a(nother) stuck injector then using the engine stops (either in the cab or on the engine) is ineffective as the engine continues to try to run. Shutting off the fuel pump is the best way of dealing with it.

Page 159 of the Haynes Manual (https://www.125group.org.uk/product/inter-city-125-haynes-manual/) refers.

 

[Highlandspring]

Shutting Queen Street because of a wee bit of smoke....good grief!

The evacuation was at the insistance of the Scottish Fire & Rescue Service who showed up at the station in response to 999 calls from the public despite being told by the railway explicitly that there was no fire and that their attendance was not required on site.

 

[jingsmonty]

I'm aware of all that,I was replying in regards of any mechanical work done or not done to them.

They probably didn't need much mechanical work, to be fair - the MTU engines are a fairly modern design anyway

 

[jingsmonty]

The RMT have deemed it worthy of a snipe.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-on-train-smoke-alert-at-glasgow-queen-street/

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:

Bit of a pathetic swipe from the RMT - operating HSTs on Scotrail will help to safeguard the role of the Conductor (vast majority of whom are RMT members - as I was myself, before I was a Driver).

In other words, we want modern, plastic & uncomfortable electric trains that will put our member's safety critical role at risk!!

 

[alangla]

2. It didn't. It went on 1 power car.

Going by the BBC picture of it crossing Hawthorn Street on the way back to Eastfield, the George Square end power car was still smoking - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-48672955 3rd picture

 

[chuff chuff]

They probably didn't need much mechanical work, to be fair - the MTU engines are a fairly modern design anyway

To be fair the engines have been fine but things like batteries and the chargers have been a bit of a pain.As a driver my main concern is with the running of them not how they look. I think there might have been a fair bit of naivety within scotrail regarding the overall condition of the power cars and coaches.But with the list provided on yammer they have now recognised that.

 

[Wst71Pa2]

As a driver my main concern is with the running of them not how they look. I think there might have been a fair bit of naivety within scotrail regarding the overall condition of the power cars and coaches.

Indeed, the inside of the unrefurbed cabs are not the best environment to spend over 2 1/2 hrs in. Manky, Musty, fag stained and looking like pigeons had been in there a for a while

 

[Mordac]

Bit of a pathetic swipe from the RMT - operating HSTs on Scotrail will help to safeguard the role of the Conductor (vast majority of whom are RMT members - as I was myself, before I was a Driver).

In other words, we want modern, plastic & uncomfortable electric trains that will put our member's safety critical role at risk!!

If it wasn't these trains they'd be complaining anyway. Anything done by a private operator is bad according to the RMT, even if it's no different than something BR would have done.

 

[Northhighland]

This was an unfortunate incident. It wouldn’t receive the same attention if the HST service was delivering all day every day. It isn’t though. So as long as we are in this partial implementation state any issue adds to uncertainty and adds to the feeling of a project out of control.

We need to see the service delivered as intended no cancellation seat reservations as per bookings in short the railway delivering what it usually does with the HST doing its job

I suspect though this isn’t going to happen and we will have a difficult summer with overcrowded trains a normal feature of life in the HML.

Project image is important for public acceptance. Not thinking ScotRail really understand any of that.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Project image is important for public acceptance. Not thinking ScotRail really understand any of that.

What exactly are you suggesting ScotRail should have done differently?

 

[jingsmonty]

To be fair the engines have been fine but things like batteries and the chargers have been a bit of a pain.As a driver my main concern is with the running of them not how they look. I think there might have been a fair bit of naivety within scotrail regarding the overall condition of the power cars and coaches.But with the list provided on yammer they have now recognised that.

That's been pretty much my experience too - I was shunting a set around a while ago, the lead Power Car had a note on the desk stating 'please do not shut down this power car'! Had the odd one that wouldn't start, until the other Power Car was running (& ETS established) as well.

 

[43096]

This was an unfortunate incident. It wouldn’t receive the same attention if the HST service was delivering all day every day. It isn’t though. So as long as we are in this partial implementation state any issue adds to uncertainty and adds to the feeling of a project out of control.

We need to see the service delivered as intended no cancellation seat reservations as per bookings in short the railway delivering what it usually does with the HST doing its job

I suspect though this isn’t going to happen and we will have a difficult summer with overcrowded trains a normal feature of life in the HML.

Project image is important for public acceptance. Not thinking ScotRail really understand any of that.

A response that is as predictable as the RMT’s.

 

[jingsmonty]

This was an unfortunate incident. It wouldn’t receive the same attention if the HST service was delivering all day every day. It isn’t though. So as long as we are in this partial implementation state any issue adds to uncertainty and adds to the feeling of a project out of control.

We need to see the service delivered as intended no cancellation seat reservations as per bookings in short the railway delivering what it usually does with the HST doing its job

I suspect though this isn’t going to happen and we will have a difficult summer with overcrowded trains a normal feature of life in the HML.

Project image is important for public acceptance. Not thinking ScotRail really understand any of that.

I think it's an issue with the training raising its head again. Diagrams changed to ensure that HST turns are fully covered, I think. Very disappointing that they're not appearing on the HML much this summer. Only (slight) consolation is that, hopefully, this will be the last summer that we'll have this issue.

 

[jingsmonty]

What exactly are you suggesting ScotRail should have done differently?

I don't think there's much that Scotrail COULD have done differently. The main issue (discussed to death already on here!) is the late running refurbishment o the coaches. It would have been worse if there'd been a big fanfare re the introduction - we may get that at some point in the future - on that happy day when we have the full refurbished fleet in service

 

[jingsmonty]

This was an unfortunate incident. It wouldn’t receive the same attention if the HST service was delivering all day every day. It isn’t though. So as long as we are in this partial implementation state any issue adds to uncertainty and adds to the feeling of a project out of control.

We need to see the service delivered as intended no cancellation seat reservations as per bookings in short the railway delivering what it usually does with the HST doing its job

I suspect though this isn’t going to happen and we will have a difficult summer with overcrowded trains a normal feature of life in the HML.

Project image is important for public acceptance. Not thinking ScotRail really understand any of that.

The point with the HML summer overcrowding is a very fair one. I'm not really sure what you mean by the last point about 'project image' though?

 

[scotraildriver]

The HSTs are delivering all day, every day service. Not so much on the HML but certainly between Glasgow/Edinburgh and Aberdeen a large percentage are consistently HSTs now. I've not had a 170 substitute since the timetable change, I have however had an HST vice 170. And no issues with any of mine either.

 

[Carntyne]

The HSTs are delivering all day, every day service. Not so much on the HML but certainly between Glasgow/Edinburgh and Aberdeen a large percentage are consistently HSTs now. I've not had a 170 substitute since the timetable change, I have however had an HST vice 170. And no issues with any of mine either.

That doesn't suit the agenda above though, so the facts will be ignored more than likely.

 

[jingsmonty]

The HSTs are delivering all day, every day service. Not so much on the HML but certainly between Glasgow/Edinburgh and Aberdeen a large percentage are consistently HSTs now. I've not had a 170 substitute since the timetable change, I have however had an HST vice 170. And no issues with any of mine either.

Lucky you! It's good to hear, though. I just wish we'd get some more on the HML - deeply frustrating that they've not been used more here. I do get the logic of concentrating them on Glasgow/Edinburgh-Aberdeens, though. And at least we're keeping our traction retention on the Elgin/Huntly shuttles for now - look forward to the next timetable change, it should improve on the HML then.

Incidentally, I had my 'refurb conversion' on HA22 yesterday - I know about the 'disco lights' now & how to avoid it

 

[Northhighland]

The point with the HML summer overcrowding is a very fair one. I'm not really sure what you mean by the last point about 'project image' though?

For a project to be successful it has to be perceived to be successful in the eyes of the customer.

If you build a new building that meets all the requirements set in time on budget yet it is perceived to be a crap building by the users the project isn’t a success.

This the same situation if the public perceive the introduction of HST to be stop start, trains unreliable, no seat reservations, trains unreliable etc then it will never be viewed as a success and the media coverage will become constantly negative. Then no matter what happens it is hard to change views.

This HST programme is headed that direction. All good Project Managers know managing the image is very important.

 

[Northhighland]

The HSTs are delivering all day, every day service. Not so much on the HML but certainly between Glasgow/Edinburgh and Aberdeen a large percentage are consistently HSTs now. I've not had a 170 substitute since the timetable change, I have however had an HST vice 170. And no issues with any of mine either.

That’s good but only a part of the solution. Getting the project half right is a start but the second part needs to be right too.

 

[Northhighland]

I think it's an issue with the training raising its head again. Diagrams changed to ensure that HST turns are fully covered, I think. Very disappointing that they're not appearing on the HML much this summer. Only (slight) consolation is that, hopefully, this will be the last summer that we'll have this issue.

I certainly hope you are right on that one. God to hear the training is happening in Inverness hope it is over soon. Important it is done thoroughly as well as quickly.

Overcrowding is a serious issue on th HML. If they could just get the number of sets in service up it would surely help.

Arriving in Edinburgh or leaving Edinburgh in a packed 170 passing Haymarket seeing bits of GST sets all over the place doesn’t help. Another example of managing the image of the project.

 

[Northhighland]

The point with the HML summer overcrowding is a very fair one. I'm not really sure what you mean by the last point about 'project image' though?

Also I think it grossly unfair in the Train Crew who face the passengers. They in general do their best but must be really frustrating and demoralising for them.

 

[Darandio]

Arriving in Edinburgh or leaving Edinburgh in a packed 170 passing Haymarket seeing bits of GST sets all over the place doesn’t help. Another example of managing the image of the project.

Not sure what you are suggesting here? They should hide everything?

 

[Northhighland]

Not sure what you are suggesting here? They should hide everything?

No get them on the track carrying passengers

 

[absolutelymilk]

No get them on the track carrying passengers

Great idea, they probably hadn't thought of that

 

[jingsmonty]

Also I think it grossly unfair in the Train Crew who face the passengers. They in general do their best but must be really frustrating and demoralising for them.

As a member of train crew myself, I'd most definetly agree with that! It's an absolute nightmare for the Conductors in particular.

A lot of the issues are not HST related - there is a general lack of train crew cover just now (particularly Drivers), which means if crew don't want to work rest days, then there's the potential for cancellations right there. Factor in lieu leave, holidays, sickness etc as well

 

[Darandio]

No get them on the track carrying passengers

Very creative. We need more people like yourself in charge of such projects.

 

[chuff chuff]

I had my refurb training last year I only found out about the disco light/ door problem on here.

 

[43096]

No get them on the track carrying passengers

In your strange world, ScotRail obviously want them sat on the depot for no reason rather than out in traffic earning revenue. Perhaps they do it just to wind clarts like you up!?

 

[RLBH]

A lot of the issues are not HST related - there is a general lack of train crew cover just now (particularly Drivers), which means if crew don't want to work rest days, then there's the potential for cancellations right there. Factor in lieu leave, holidays, sickness etc as well

This is something of a systematic failure in the way the railways (and Britain in general) are run, I think - the reliance on staff volunteering for extra shifts to cover core operations. There are a multitude of reasons why it's done this way, of course, but it's not sustainable precisely because as soon as people aren't willing to take the extra shifts, the system collapses.

Really, it should be possible to cover all normal shifts (including Sundays, public holidays and unsociable hours) within the normal contracted hours - including leave and other reasonably forseeable absences. Overtime ought to be reserved for unforseen circumstances - but of course that means you have to hire and train more people,) and the existing workforce lose out on overtime pay.

Dragging this back to HSTs - undermanning is one aspect of a lack of system resilience. The tight timetable for getting the HSTs in to release other units is another place where resilience is lacking; if the existing fleets had remained on hire a bit longer, then the cascade could have taken place more gradually and we'd not have as many cases where the Highland Main Line gets a two-car 158 to take 200 people and their luggage. Some services could even have been doubled up, relieving congestion.

But because things had to go off hire so that other operators could use them, that resilience isn't there. We really need to get over this idea that something that isn't being used at full capacity is being wasted.