ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[scotraildriver]

Certainly looks as though they could be outsourcing catering.

I really hope not. National Express did that in 1997 and it was terrible. One of the first things First group did was bring it back in house. It made a big difference.

 

[hexagon789]

I really hope not. National Express did that in 1997 and it was terrible. One of the first things First group did was bring it back in house. It made a big difference.

Hadn't realised NatEx outsourced catering, but then I can't really recall NatEx days.

Certainly I never had any complaints about catering under First as such, for a trolley service it was fine, but I do think progressing to enhanced catering with a buffet was the right step to make.

So long as a reliable catering service can be assured, does it matter if it's provided in-house or not really?

 

[43096]

But are they the only firm capable of the work ?.

If you came up with the design would you let anyone else use it?

 

[route101]

Hadn't realised NatEx outsourced catering, but then I can't really recall NatEx days.

Certainly I never had any complaints about catering under First as such, for a trolley service it was fine, but I do think progressing to enhanced catering with a buffet was the right step to make.

So long as a reliable catering service can be assured, does it matter if it's provided in-house or not really?

Actually think the Scotrail trolley selection is pretty good , has different and local stuff .

 

[hexagon789]

Actually think the Scotrail trolley selection is pretty good , has different and local stuff .

Certainly the variety at present is, indeed good for a trolley service, but the buffet can stock more and theoretically offer a greater variety.

 

[Cashew]

If you came up with the design would you let anyone else use it?

What about Hitachi 800 series, are their doors designed by Wabtec.

 

[hexagon789]

What about Hitachi 800 series, are their doors designed by Wabtec.

Hitachi design, hence why it's sliding leaf, not plug doors; Hitachi considered the former farm more reliable I believe.

 

[Cashew]

Certainly the variety at present is, indeed good for a trolley service, but the buffet can stock more and theoretically offer a greater variety.

And in theory have a constant supply of hot water and offer hot food.

 

[hexagon789]

And in theory have a constant supply of hot water and offer hot food.

That too, though they don't seem to offer a significant hot food selection at present.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Not compared to a 4+2 HST, that's for sure! The difference between a Class 170 (and, even more so, a Class 158) in acceleration is quite an eye-opener. I drove a 4+2 HST north from Perth a few weeks ago, with a sick leading power car (basically the engine was running, but supplying zero traction power - effectively a 4+1, along with a dead power car) was roughly comparable to a Class 170 running at full power!

Sorry, I know this is an EMT HST question but when I videoed NL65 come into Leeds around 13:15 on the 05/04/19, the rear power car was running at the lower rev (like the leading power car normally is when calling at stations). I was in Coach M on this service to Kings Cross. Performed fine all the way there.

What causes the rear power car of any HST to arrive with the engine running at the lower rev and then perform fine for a 2 - 2 hour 30 minute trip?

 

[hexagon789]

Sorry, I know this is an EMT HST question but when I videoed NL65 come into Leeds around 13:15 on the 05/04/19, the rear power car was running at the lower rev (like the leading power car normally is when calling at stations). I was in Coach M on this service to Kings Cross. Performed fine all the way there.

What causes the rear power car of any HST to arrive with the engine running at the lower rev and then perform fine for a 2 - 2 hour 30 minute trip?

Normally the rear power car provides the Electric Train Supply for the on-board power such as heating, air-con, lighting etc. This is why the rear power car idles at 1,000rpm (equivalent of Notch 2), against 750rpm for the leading one.

If indeed the rear power car was idling at 750, then the front one must have been providing ETS, presumably due to a fault with the rear one that meant it couldn't.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Normally the rear power car provides the Electric Train Supply for the on-board power such as heating, air-con, lighting etc. This is why the rear power car idles at 1,000rpm (equivalent of Notch 2), against 750rpm for the leading one.

If indeed the rear power car was idling at 750, then the front one must have been providing ETS, presumably due to a fault with the rear one that meant it couldn't.

That's another big improvement of HST's over 170's - when on layover, staff can work in room temperature conditions (if the air-conditioning is working) when one power car is off and the other is running to provide your hotel needs basically.

With a DMU or bi-mode MU when in diesel mode, you can't do that as the whole train is shut down - depending on the layover times of course.

 

[InvHst]

Can I ask anyone who has any idea what services on a Sunday are hsts from either Edinburgh or Glasgow since realtime trains isn't showing a true number and I'm interested as travelling north next week

 

[InvHst]

Can I ask anyone who has any idea what services on a Sunday are hsts from either Edinburgh or Glasgow since realtime trains isn't showing a true number and I'm interested as travelling north next week

Sorry meant to say to Inverness

 

[hexagon789]

That's another big improvement of HST's over 170's - when on layover, staff can work in room temperature conditions (if the air-conditioning is working) when one power car is off and the other is running to provide your hotel needs basically.

With a DMU or bi-mode MU when in diesel mode, you can't do that as the whole train is shut down - depending on the layover times of course.

I can imagine the staff very much prefer that in the winter!

 

[scotraildriver]

Hadn't realised NatEx outsourced catering, but then I can't really recall NatEx days.

Certainly I never had any complaints about catering under First as such, for a trolley service it was fine, but I do think progressing to enhanced catering with a buffet was the right step to make.

So long as a reliable catering service can be assured, does it matter if it's provided in-house or not really?

It was considerably more expensive when a private company ran it. The current prices aren't too bad at all.

 

[hexagon789]

It was considerably more expensive when a private company ran it. The current prices aren't too bad at all.

True, they are pretty reasonable compared to other TOCs.

 

[jingsmonty]

Can you make 100 on that stretch?

In an HST - easily (in both directions, you can actually easily coast at 100mph, once you get there)! In a 170 - about 97mph (Southbound) is the best I've managed, North bound, it's hard to get much over 90 mph

 

[hexagon789]

In an HST - easily (in both directions, you can actually easily coast at 100mph, once you get there)! In a 170 - about 97mph (Southbound) is the best I've managed, North bound, it's hard to get much over 90 mph

That says a lot about HSTs and a lot about 170s!

Be very interesting to see when they finally tighten up timings just what they are capable of.

 

[w1bbl3]

But are they the only firm capable of the work ?.

For another refurbishment company to offer sliding door mods they'd need to design the modification in terms of how to fit the door into the carriage end, which is the difficult bit of the process. The actual door mechanism is something that could be purchased from a number of different suppliers of which a Wabtec subsidiary is one.

The Chiltern plug door mod programme (by Wabtec Doncaster) took the approach of cut end off above the sole bar and fabricate a new end, very time consuming and expensive as each mk3 coach is slightly different.

The Wabtec Doncaster sliding door mod was designed to avoid the time/complexity of remaking the coach end by offering a door that could be fitted into the existing aperture.

I'd suspect that the truth is the coaches are just too far gone age and corrosion wise the for door modification to be practical at the scale and time envisaged. Considering how badly the programme is going for Wabtec who are not inexperienced at rail vehicle modification I can't see another refurbisher wanting the work unless the price is very attractive.

 

[pt_mad]

For another refurbishment company to offer sliding door mods they'd need to design the modification in terms of how to fit the door into the carriage end, which is the difficult bit of the process. The actual door mechanism is something that could be purchased from a number of different suppliers of which a Wabtec subsidiary is one.

The Chiltern plug door mod programme (by Wabtec Doncaster) took the approach of cut end off above the sole bar and fabricate a new end, very time consuming and expensive as each mk3 coach is slightly different.

The Wabtec Doncaster sliding door mod was designed to avoid the time/complexity of remaking the coach end by offering a door that could be fitted into the existing aperture.

I'd suspect that the truth is the coaches are just too far gone age and corrosion wise the for door modification to be practical at the scale and time envisaged. Considering how badly the programme is going for Wabtec who are not inexperienced at rail vehicle modification I can't see another refurbisher wanting the work unless the price is very attractive.

I'm surprised they didn't just go with some sort of air release unlock button fitted to the existing slam doors. Like the air release door catch within the class 230 vivarail train, between the coaches. The door slams shut, but an air release button releases the doors from its catch and the door can then be pulled open.

Would that have been PRM compliant? Maybe not?

 

[hexagon789]

I'm surprised they didn't just go with some sort of air release unlock button fitted to the existing slam doors. Like the air release door catch within the class 230 vivarail train, between the coaches. The door slams shut, but an air release button releases the doors from its catch and the door can then be pulled open.

Would that have been PRM compliant? Maybe not?

I think it has to be a sliding door, but I think they theoretically only had to fit such doirs yo it to the entryway used for wheelchair access to the area designated for wheelchairs.

 

[route101]

That too, though they don't seem to offer a significant hot food selection at present.

Bacon rolls , paninis i think . Think they are £4 odds

 

[hexagon789]

Bacon rolls , paninis i think . Think they are £4 odds

I think they do pies too iirc

 

[mde]

I think they do pies too iirc

Unless it’s changed, Kilmarnock Pies (steak), paninis, croissants etc.

The ‘Inter7City café’ menu is here.

 

[hexagon789]

Unless it’s changed, Kilmarnock Pies (steak), paninis, croissants etc.

The ‘Inter7City café’ menu is here.

That's it! Killie pies.

And cheers for the Inter7City menu, couldn't locate it on ScotRail's website.

 

[hexagon789]

Actually it's interesting how firstly the prices are pretty reasonable for the most part and secondly how much greater choice there is - I sincerely hope the buffets are retained and if the catering does ultimately get outsourced that the choice is still there.

 

[pt_mad]

You should try Caledonian Macbrayne. You can get a meal for about 8 quid or a huge jacket potato, filling and a big salad for around 6 quid. It's like a restaurant car without the price!

 

[RLBH]

Actually it's interesting how firstly the prices are pretty reasonable for the most part and secondly how much greater choice there is - I sincerely hope the buffets are retained and if the catering does ultimately get outsourced that the choice is still there.

If the buffets are abandoned, it'll undermine ScotRail quite significantly. Not so much for the absence of the buffet, but for promising it as part of a 'genuine intercity experience' then not following through. And the buffet counters in the refurbished sets will remain in place as a very visible reminder of that broken promise.

You should try Caledonian Macbrayne. You can get a meal for about 8 quid or a huge jacket potato, filling and a big salad for around 6 quid. It's like a restaurant car without the price!

It would be interesting to know the economics of CalMac catering - I'd expect it to encounter a lot of the same issues as rail catering. Including the space constraints; ships are bigger than trains, but that space gets eaten up surprisingly quickly.

Of course, it doesn't tend to be full and standing across the Minch.

 

[Mingulay]

I was driving up the A9 last week and glanced over to see a 2 car 158 Rammed full! Really felt for them. Brutal way to travel a long distance. Not sure what would be worse. Standing or crammed into the inadequate leg room at a table post refurb. Standing is the better option

Regardless. That is a pitiful effort by Scotrail for an Inverness service. Amazed the local politicians are not all over this grilling the transport minister. St the very least a 4 car 158 even if meant cancelling services in the borders . Longer service trumps the shorter ones

Heaven only knows what tourists think.