ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Railperf]

The Aberdeen route seems to be working very well with the majority of services booked for hsts actually being hsts.
And I experienced some first Class Driving between Aberdeen and Dundee which suggests the drivers are up to speed on handling these on what is a quite challenging route.

 

[chuff chuff]

Yeah it's been a wee while since I noted it but yes roughly 2 and half minutes and two and a half miles to hit the ton.Obviously that's not hanging around but no not straight to notch five but you don't wait long.

Had one of the refurbs out today and even in the damp today I reckon it made the ton in two miles dead usually around the two and a quarter mark.

 

[GrimShady]

Seen a refurb set on its way to Waverly today. Looked a bit grubby on the outside, the city silhouette transfer on the Mk3 seems to attract a lot of dirt.

 

[hexagon789]

I know i've probably come over as being a little bit of a downer about this whole project and sometimes rightly so and there's no doubt mistakes have been made but it's coming together now,not perfect but getting there.

Well that's it, no one is going to say it gone smoothly - of course it hasn't, but things seem to be going in the right direction now.

 

[hexagon789]

What does ‘PU’ stand for? I’m unfamiliar with the acronym.

'Power Unit' I'd guess.

 

[Railperf]

Had one of the refurbs out today and even in the damp today I reckon it made the ton in two miles dead usually around the two and a quarter mark.

Would like to have experienced that. That would put it in the same league as a class 385 for acceleration

 

[scotraildriver]

I have no evidence to say you are not correct apart form seeing sets in bits at Haymarket and in Inverness while stuck on a packed 158 or a 170. I am sorry but don't really care about the closure on the Inverness to Aberdeen line, is planned there are plenty of HST's so why cant this just be delivered. I know it may not be as simple as that but it appears so to passengers.

Aberdeen to Inverness is part of the HST project though. The 2+4 sets are specifically for this route so it's closure means HSTs cannot work their diagrams at present which limits their use on Inverness services.

 

[43096]

Imminent as everything always is with this shambles. When will the HST refurbishment scheme be cancelled?

About the same time the usual, tedious, crashing bores stop their “when will the project be cancelled” posts on here.

 

[Railperf]

Aberdeen to Inverness is part of the HST project though. The 2+4 sets are specifically for this route so it's closure means HSTs cannot work their diagrams at present which limits their use on Inverness services.

why does that limit their use on Inverness to/ from Edinburgh and Glasgow? Surely there is a greater need up and down the HML than between Aberdeen and Inverness? And better to use these sets than have them sitting idle?

 

[JLUK144]

why does that limit their use on Inverness to/ from Edinburgh and Glasgow? Surely there is a greater need up and down the HML than between Aberdeen and Inverness? And better to use these sets than have them sitting idle?

They're probably sitting idle because Scotrail haven't trained enough drivers and guards for the HSTs. The A-I is an important Intercity route that has been neglected. It still has the old 75 mph ceiling and is still largely single and hasn't had a new station since Dyce was reopened in 1984 and the relocation of Forres in 2017. The rolling stock isn't exactly suited for Intercity services either. Therefore, it is sense for Scotrail to roll out their Inter7City trains on that line and get Network Rail to look into improving the infrastructure to bring it up to a standard that is expected of an Intercity route.

 

[Brissle Girl]

They're probably sitting idle because Scotrail haven't trained enough drivers and guards for the HSTs. The A-I is an important Intercity route that has been neglected. It still has the old 75 mph ceiling and is still largely single and hasn't had a new station since Dyce was reopened in 1984 and the relocation of Forres in 2017. The rolling stock isn't exactly suited for Intercity services either. Therefore, it is sense for Scotrail to roll out their Inter7City trains on that line and get Network Rail to look into improving the infrastructure to bring it up to a standard that is expected of an Intercity route.

I think the question was, given the Aberdeen to Inverness route is currently partially closed, why can the sets not be deployed on the HML in the meantime.

 

[JLUK144]

I think the question was, given the Aberdeen to Inverness route is currently partially closed, why can the sets not be deployed on the HML in the meantime.

Which I addressed. I was merely addressing other members' criticism of the inclusion of that line in Scotrail's Inter7City scheme as well.

 

[PG]

So, all sets meant to be in service by now, 6 delivered of 26.

To deal with Wabtec's delay, classic sets are brought in.

Now, so huge are the delays, that the classic sets themselves are having considerable sums spent on them to bring them to the toilet level the refurbished sets are meant to have. Don't give that contract to Wabtec!

Or just not to Wabtec Doncaster

Or perhaps not to CAF either given the Mk5 issues at both Caledonian Sleeper and Trans Pennine Express.

Has any Mk3 had retention tanks fitted (excluding the refub HSTs)?
If not won't the time taken to design, tender, build and introduce into service take us well into the second half of 2020 if not beyond by which time the refurb fleet size will hopefully have (at least) doubled?

 

[BRX]

I notice we hear a lot more about the Inverness services than the Aberdeen ones on this thread, despite Aberdeen being the larger destination. Is that just to do with the location of regular posters? Does Aberdeen have a dearth of railway enthusiasts...?

 

[Clansman]

I notice we hear a lot more about the Inverness services than the Aberdeen ones on this thread, despite Aberdeen being the larger destination. Is that just to do with the location of regular posters? Does Aberdeen have a dearth of railway enthusiasts...?

I am a regular traveller through Aberdeen every week or two, and there's pretty much little news on the HSTs up that way other than any service I've had over the past 2 months that is booked a HST has actually been a HST - a significant improvement from December to April when I would sight the screen outside the station at Union Square and see that at a glance most of the services had additional notes underneath it which, upon nearing the station, bared "Apologies, train has fewer carriages. This train has 2 carriages". In other words, wherever you could see an additional note under each service listed, you just knew.

Nowadays it is evidently becoming a rarity, although I am beginning to question, as you may have seen a few pages back, the suitability of 4-car HSTs on this route. A high density GWR 4-car is enough for everyone to have a seat with the odd free here and there but nothing more. 3 out of the 5 refurbs I've had travelling to and from Aberdeen over the past month have been full and standing, usually from Perth or Dundee when heading south, and quieting up at both when heading north.

From a passenger point of view any of the HSTs is a significant improvement when a seat is available, but from a staff point of viewv (particularly gaurds), most I've spoken to can't wait to see the back of the 'classics' because the additional workload at stations is knackering them!

 

[PG]

I know it was mentioned upthread recently that a 2+4 has about 35 extra seats over a 3 coach 170, some of which are in 1st class. As its going to be a while before the 2+5 sets appear there may well be folk standing to/from Dundee and Perth, though given the choice of standing on a 170 or a HST I bet a majority would prefer the HST.

Running up and down 70+ (so 140) metres at each stop when you've never worked slam doors before must be a bit of a culture shock. I'm sure there might be the odd LNER guard chuckling at this given they probably do about double that distance on their HSTs.

 

[Highlandspring]

I notice we hear a lot more about the Inverness services than the Aberdeen ones on this thread, despite Aberdeen being the larger destination. Is that just to do with the location of regular posters?

I’d say that’s exactly it. There’s a reasonably large and vocal Highland main line contingent here combined with there being nothing really to say about the Aberdeen services. It’s becoming increasingly rare that I see a 170 at all now.

from a staff point of view (particularly guards), most I've spoken to can't wait to see the back of the 'classics' because the additional workload at stations is knackering them!

The conductors of my acquaintance have all told me they enjoy working the classics, a couple more so than the refurbished sets.

 

[43096]

Has any Mk3 had retention tanks fitted (excluding the refub HSTs)?
If not won't the time taken to design, tender, build and introduce into service take us well into the second half of 2020 if not beyond by which time the refurb fleet size will hopefully have (at least) doubled?

Yes, the Anglia fleet is retention tank fitted.

 

[Morayshire]

Nothing really to say about the Aberdeen services

This is an accurate summary in my experience of commuting in and out of Aberdeen to and from Arbroath with respect to the HSTs. All runs well (from my point of view - others may differ) so there is nothing to complain about from my perspective.

 

[Railperf]

I notice we hear a lot more about the Inverness services than the Aberdeen ones on this thread, despite Aberdeen being the larger destination. Is that just to do with the location of regular posters? Does Aberdeen have a dearth of railway enthusiasts...?

The only comment to make about Aberdeen servicrs is that the timings could be trimmed as the HST sets are making mincemeat of them arriving frequently early at many intermediate stops.
I would have liked to see a spread of sets across the Highland and Aberdeen services - but maybe the oil money wins out? . All joking aside..the Inverness route seems to be more important for tourism and the 170s are usually packed. That's why it is a shame that any idle HSTs are not in use along that line. But if lack of staff training is the issue..the question is how long before adequate staff are trained to get the highland main line HST service up and running. I cannot imagine Aberdeen to Inverness being a more important route than Inverness to Edinburgh / Glasgow..but correct me if I am wrong.

 

[InOban]

AIRC, in the original plan, before delivery schedule went AWOL, Edinburgh to Aberdeen was to go HST first, followed by Glasgow to Aberdeen, and the HML was last. Personally, I would have put Inverness to Aberdeen last.

 

[BRX]

Running up and down 70+ (so 140) metres at each stop when you've never worked slam doors before must be a bit of a culture shock.

Probably has lots of health benefits for them though!

Actually, when I travelled up on a 'classic' set a couple of months ago, I was watching the guard helping people with the doors and keeping an eye on everything in general, more so that you typically see on non-slam door stock. I wondered if it has a kind of side benefit that they interact more with passengers than they would otherwise, and whether this might be something that could actually make the job feel more rewarding as well as making passengers feel more like someone was actively looking after them.

 

[Northhighland]

AIRC, in the original plan, before delivery schedule went AWOL, Edinburgh to Aberdeen was to go HST first, followed by Glasgow to Aberdeen, and the HML was last. Personally, I would have put Inverness to Aberdeen last.

Looking at the postings on social media I think the plan needs changed. Get the HST working on the HML. It will stop overcrowding. Or at least reduce it to small levels.

 

[hexagon789]

Looking at the postings on social media I think the plan needs changed. Get the HST working on the HML. It will stop overcrowding. Or at least reduce it to small levels.

Looks like there will be more on the HML after August and the A-I reopening

 

[mde]

Has any Mk3 had retention tanks fitted (excluding the refub HSTs)?
If not won't the time taken to design, tender, build and introduce into service take us well into the second half of 2020 if not beyond by which time the refurb fleet size will hopefully have (at least) doubled?

The tender only allows a short window for works (01/08/19 > 31/12/19) with it being suggested that works be carried out at Haymarket or Inverness, so it seems reasonable to infer that there must be an inkling somewhere that an off the shelf design would be used.

 

[scotraildriver]

I inagine they can just use the design as used on the refurbished sets. The actual toiet area is unchanged from a slam door MK3. Only the toilet itself and a box of gubbins on the roof is new.

 

[Railperf]

Looks like there will be more on the HML after August and the A-I reopening

That is good news. Hoping to take a trip up the HML in September on an HST instead of a 170. Will be doing the complete circuit.
Seriously though..is there that much demand on Aberdeen to Inverness as an Intercity route?

 

[RLBH]

Seriously though..is there that much demand on Aberdeen to Inverness as an Intercity route?

End to end, probably not huge demand, but fairly reasonable, and it's a long enough journey to make decent (if not necessarily long) trains justifiable. And that's with a low speed limit (I believe it's maximum 75mph) that makes for long journey times. If services can be accelerated, it could be more attractive.

From either end to intermediate stations, demand is significant, and an Inverness train can easily be standing as far as Keith, then start filling up again from Elgin. Part of this is that the timetables from Inverness for Aberdeen and Perth are irregular and don't match up very well, and tickets to the Central Belt or beyond are valid for either route, so Forres and Elgin passengers will often go via Aberdeen.

 

[BRX]

I think there must be quite a lot of latent demand for end-end journeys, if the timetable can be improved. It's fairly well known as an unpleasant and congested (by Highland standards) route to drive.

 

[Railperf]

End to end, probably not huge demand, but fairly reasonable, and it's a long enough journey to make decent (if not necessarily long) trains justifiable. And that's with a low speed limit (I believe it's maximum 75mph) that makes for long journey times. If services can be accelerated, it could be more attractive.

From either end to intermediate stations, demand is significant, and an Inverness train can easily be standing as far as Keith, then start filling up again from Elgin. Part of this is that the timetables from Inverness for Aberdeen and Perth are irregular and don't match up very well, and tickets to the Central Belt or beyond are valid for either route, so Forres and Elgin passengers will often go via Aberdeen.

Interesting. Are there any plans to improve line speeds on any of the routes for the HSTs? It strikes me that in many places at least 90mph could be possible with some signalling improvements.