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ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

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Altnabreac

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Conversation today with a non enthusiast who travelled Glasgow - Aberdeen on Saturday:

Them - “My Aberdeen train was one of those new trains Scotrail have bought. They’re fantastic”

Me - “They’re actually 40 years old”

Them - “Well they seemed new. Much better than the Cross Country ones that have the toilet smell.”

I think it’s further evidence that as more of the HSTs appear they can have an appeal to the ordinary punter.
 

Killingworth

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Just out of idle interest, how many units have Wabtec completed for other TOCs, and how many are still to be completed? I may be missing something but I haven't heard a lot of wailing about late deliveries and units being delivered with major faults elsewhere.

Perhaps they are but I see refurbished XC units passing through Sheffield on a regular basis (sorry I'm not a number taker) and my wife thinks they are new trains. Old East Midlands HSTs seem to power through without difficulty on a regular basis and when I'm in Newcastle or Doncaster I note old LNER units performing well enough.

There seems to be an under story for the Wabtec/Scotrail situation. There's so much speculation, but contracts don't go so badly awry without a combination of many factors; usually not the most obvious to those on the outside.
 

sprinterguy

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Just out of idle interest, how many units have Wabtec completed for other TOCs, and how many are still to be completed? I may be missing something but I haven't heard a lot of wailing about late deliveries and units being delivered with major faults elsewhere.
Scotrail
7 sets/28 vehicles delivered between 18/08/18 and 09/08/19 (1 vehicle per 12.7 days). First vehicles entered Doncaster works 01/09/17.
19 sets/93 vehicles remaining to be delivered.

Crosscountry
3 sets/21 vehicles delivered between 19/07/18 and 09/09/19 (1 vehicle per 19.9 days). First vehicles entered Doncaster works 01/03/17.
2 sets/14 vehicles (+5 spares) remaining to be delivered.

Great Western
6 sets/24 vehicles delivered between 13/03/18 and ??/??/19 (1 vehicle per 22.4 days, using 01/09/19 as an arbitrary cut off date).
5 sets/20 vehicles (+4 spares) remaining to be delivered.

I'm less than certain on the GWR sets - I haven't been keeping as close a watch. Any corrections are welcome.

The first two converted Crosscountry sets haven't been without their teething troubles, but fortunately they don't seem to have suffered the same availability issues that have beset the Scotrail sets, given that Crosscountry have been fulfilling their normal HST diagrams with one set out of service undergoing conversion at any given time.
 
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Railperf

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0845 Inverness to Glasgow was a 6 car 170.
Credit to Scotrail...they are finding units as substitutes and avoiding cancelling services. But on the day they are quite rightly crowing about reliability of the Class 385's..the availability of HSTs must be a concern as it seems to be getting lower and lower.
The only service that seemed to be a HST for at least 2 days in a row - was the 0942 Aberdeen to Stirling and 1235 Stirling to Inverness..and 1554 Inverness to Edinburgh.
 

InvHst

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Credit to Scotrail...they are finding units as substitutes and avoiding cancelling services. But on the day they are quite rightly crowing about reliability of the Class 385's..the availability of HSTs must be a concern as it seems to be getting lower and lower.
The only service that seemed to be a HST for at least 2 days in a row - was the 0942 Aberdeen to Stirling and 1235 Stirling to Inverness..and 1554 Inverness to Edinburgh.

And even that's not a HST today

4 diagrams out today is frankly an absolute shambles honest answers from up top need answering and soon cause their shouldn't be any excuse why they aren't in service. 13 diagrams and only 4 running we could actually get a scenario when we have none running which would be suicide
 

Railperf

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As I said, the low availability of HST's is disappointing. But if the scheduled services are running- albeit with substitute traction - mainly Class 170s - then they have to be given credit for that. And the 170's and 158's can keep to the timings - so that isn't an issue either.
Thankfully the timetable booklets don't state that any particular service is an HST. And no-one seemed to complain that a service in the hands of a 158 was not their expected high-speed train. The travelling public don't seem bothered about it - or maybe because they are so used to the 158's and 170's they don't blink an eye at them. I never heard a single complaint on any of the services I travelled on that were either 170's or 158's. I think people quite like them - particularly the 170's.
 

route101

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As I said, the low availability of HST's is disappointing. But if the scheduled services are running- albeit with substitute traction - mainly Class 170s - then they have to be given credit for that. And the 170's and 158's can keep to the timings - so that isn't an issue either.
Thankfully the timetable booklets don't state that any particular service is an HST. And no-one seemed to complain that a service in the hands of a 158 was not their expected high-speed train. The travelling public don't seem bothered about it - or maybe because they are so used to the 158's and 170's they don't blink an eye at them. I never heard a single complaint on any of the services I travelled on that were either 170's or 158's. I think people quite like them - particularly the 170's.

I think people are so used to the DMUs on these routes that HSTs are a new fangled thing .
 

Cashew

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As I said, the low availability of HST's is disappointing. But if the scheduled services are running- albeit with substitute traction - mainly Class 170s - then they have to be given credit for that. And the 170's and 158's can keep to the timings - so that isn't an issue either.
Thankfully the timetable booklets don't state that any particular service is an HST. And no-one seemed to complain that a service in the hands of a 158 was not their expected high-speed train. The travelling public don't seem bothered about it - or maybe because they are so used to the 158's and 170's they don't blink an eye at them. I never heard a single complaint on any of the services I travelled on that were either 170's or 158's. I think people quite like them - particularly the 170's.
Or maybe they are resigned to the fact that Scotrail's promise of improved Inter-city services is not going to happen.!
 

Northhighland

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As I said, the low availability of HST's is disappointing. But if the scheduled services are running- albeit with substitute traction - mainly Class 170s - then they have to be given credit for that. And the 170's and 158's can keep to the timings - so that isn't an issue either.
Thankfully the timetable booklets don't state that any particular service is an HST. And no-one seemed to complain that a service in the hands of a 158 was not their expected high-speed train. The travelling public don't seem bothered about it - or maybe because they are so used to the 158's and 170's they don't blink an eye at them. I never heard a single complaint on any of the services I travelled on that were either 170's or 158's. I think people quite like them - particularly the 170's.

Think this understanding of how travellers feel has some merit but I think there is significant annoyance at the lack of seat reservations and lack of seats generally.

Needs to simply get this fixed. We need a reliable train service.
 

Highland37

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As I said, the low availability of HST's is disappointing. But if the scheduled services are running- albeit with substitute traction - mainly Class 170s - then they have to be given credit for that. And the 170's and 158's can keep to the timings - so that isn't an issue either.
Thankfully the timetable booklets don't state that any particular service is an HST. And no-one seemed to complain that a service in the hands of a 158 was not their expected high-speed train. The travelling public don't seem bothered about it - or maybe because they are so used to the 158's and 170's they don't blink an eye at them. I never heard a single complaint on any of the services I travelled on that were either 170's or 158's. I think people quite like them - particularly the 170's.

I have heard plenty of complaints about the 158s and 170s and the service overall. Indeed, my own daughter has started travelling on the train by herself and the inlaws were keen that that was by bus so as to avoid the train. Even one page of this thread is a good example of the dissatisfaction with the service.
 

Railperf

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I think people are so used to the DMUs on these routes that HSTs are a new fangled thing .
Yes that's true to a degree.

Or maybe they are resigned to the fact that Scotrail's promise of improved Inter-city services is not going to happen.!
They have no reason to feel that way. Just because there were issues with the 385's didn't mean they would never fix that issue and introduce them into service.
And i don't think anyone can complain about that service now. So there;s every reason to believe it will eventually come right.

For only 4 HST sets to be in service suggests more issues going on than were anticipated, but they are still providing a train service. Only a single train was cancelled due to a set failure on Saturday. And when the set assigned to the 1630 Aberdeen to Glasgow failed, it was replaced with a 3-car 170 (originally assigned to the 1715 Aberdeen to Edinburgh) at short notice and left on its way. That meant the 17:15 Aberdeen to Edinburgh on Saturday night ended up as a 2-car 158. This was okay at the start but was full and standing after Dundee. So the lack of carriages became an issue.
But then there had been a Pride event in Dundee and lots of extra people seemed to be making their way home. I don't get the feeling that this was the regular quantity of people getting on a train to Edinburgh at that time of the evening!

Until that point - the 3-car 170's i travelled on all day substituting for the HST's, were well up to the job in terms of capacity and timekeeping. The Uk rail industry is suffering delays in delivery of new and refurbished rolling stock. And Scotrail aren't immune to it either I'm afraid.

Think this understanding of how travellers feel has some merit but I think there is significant annoyance at the lack of seat reservations and lack of seats generally.

Needs to simply get this fixed. We need a reliable train service.
The train service is reliable. What isn't reliable is the deployment of HST's on it - hence substituting other DMU's in their place! I don't believe anyone at Scotrail is happy about it - apart from those staff who are appalled that the these "50 year old environmentally unfriendly " Classic sets are in use dumping effluent on the tracks, causing delays by guards having to walk down the train and manually shut doors etc!
 

47271

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It seems that there's a deep cluelessness at work somewhere in the management of Scotrail's HST implementation but without insider knowledge it's impossible to know where that lies. If those minutes from the Scottish Parliament committee, and its failure to ask searching questions are anything to go by, then we'll never know. Maybe the programme will deliver eventually, or maybe it won't.

They having a bit of luck at long last - they've now got just about enough Classics,158s and 170s to keep the service running without cancellations. So they could get away with this pretty much indefinitely, and I fear that this will be how it plays out for the next 18-24 months.
 

Millisle

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0845 Inverness to Glasgow was a 6 car 170.

I travelled on this service. The rear set appeared empty as I walked up the platform. As I checked that it was definitely coupled and turned to board it I was told by the guard to use the front set. So the rear set was being worked south. There was plenty of space nevertheless in the front set. An uneventful journey to time.
 

43096

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They having a bit of luck at long last - they've now got just about enough Classics,158s and 170s to keep the service running without cancellations. So they could get away with this pretty much indefinitely, and I fear that this will be how it plays out for the next 18-24 months.
Can they? 170416-420 are due to transfer to EMR.
 

Northhighland

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Yes that's true to a degree.


They have no reason to feel that way. Just because there were issues with the 385's didn't mean they would never fix that issue and introduce them into service.
And i don't think anyone can complain about that service now. So there;s every reason to believe it will eventually come right.

For only 4 HST sets to be in service suggests more issues going on than were anticipated, but they are still providing a train service. Only a single train was cancelled due to a set failure on Saturday. And when the set assigned to the 1630 Aberdeen to Glasgow failed, it was replaced with a 3-car 170 (originally assigned to the 1715 Aberdeen to Edinburgh) at short notice and left on its way. That meant the 17:15 Aberdeen to Edinburgh on Saturday night ended up as a 2-car 158. This was okay at the start but was full and standing after Dundee. So the lack of carriages became an issue.
But then there had been a Pride event in Dundee and lots of extra people seemed to be making their way home. I don't get the feeling that this was the regular quantity of people getting on a train to Edinburgh at that time of the evening!

Until that point - the 3-car 170's i travelled on all day substituting for the HST's, were well up to the job in terms of capacity and timekeeping. The Uk rail industry is suffering delays in delivery of new and refurbished rolling stock. And Scotrail aren't immune to it either I'm afraid.


The train service is reliable. What isn't reliable is the deployment of HST's on it - hence substituting other DMU's in their place! I don't believe anyone at Scotrail is happy about it - apart from those staff who are appalled that the these "50 year old environmentally unfriendly " Classic sets are in use dumping effluent on the tracks, causing delays by guards having to walk down the train and manually shut doors etc!

Reliability cannot be measured purely does a train turn up at roughly the right time. Reliability means you can book a seat and get the seat you booked. Having to stand from Edinburgh or Glasgow to Perth and beyond isn’t acceptable. That is is not a reliable predictable service.
 

Clansman

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Reliability cannot be measured purely does a train turn up at roughly the right time. Reliability means you can book a seat and get the seat you booked. Having to stand from Edinburgh or Glasgow to Perth and beyond isn’t acceptable. That is is not a reliable predictable service.
Worth noting that standing from Perth in either direction is very common regardless whether it's a DMU sub in or a classic or refurb HST working the service. Had a refurb the other day from Pitlochry to Glasgow - full and standing from Perth, with one working toilet, a closed buffet, luggage in one vestibule, and one mountain bike encompassing both bike racks. This was at 8am!

The stupid calls at Dunblane and Bridge of Allan didn't aid matters when they shored up a barrel load of Glasgow commuters. Ideally it's a service that'd run non stop from Gleneagles, if there was the paths to allow it.

And people wonder why I maintain a double 158 is more suited to Inverness runs than what any of the HSTs are at the moment - which has roughly the same standard capacity as the 5-car refurbs will eventually have; with much more bike storage, toilets, and better reliability.

Still a fan and have faith in the entire project, but for christ sake, if it's going to be done, it has to be done right - from the specs to the delivery. Manufacturing issues? Fair enough. But there's no excuse whatsoever from how poorly specced the refurbs are and the grossly negligible underestimation that was evident in capacity on all fronts.
 
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InOban

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But when? I read somewhere that it had been agreed to postpone transfer of certain units, not sure which.
 

BRX

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Y apart from those staff who are appalled that the these "50 year old environmentally unfriendly " Classic sets

They aren't 50 years old though! And the engines responsible for any emissions are 15 years old which I think means they are newer than the ones in either the 158s or 170s.

Or is your point that staff are over-hyping the problems?
 

Caleb2010

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Refurb set HA22 on 1B31 today, I'm on it from Aviemore to Edinburgh, very smart looking, nice bright interior, smooth riding and clean. A much better product all round to the noisy, shaky, uncomfortable 170 normally experienced.

Still can't organise a booze up in a brewery though, consistently booking people onto high capacity stock and sending with low capacity stock or different stock out! So, as usual, all reservations cancelled!
 

InOban

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According to a recent tweet from ScotRail there should be 4 refurbished sets in use this evening. Is this a record?
 
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