ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[coppercapped]

Correct me if I am wrong but was the original plan for maintenance of the HSTs not to have Craigentinny do all the work but with Hitachi taking over the depot, they weren't interested in extra work.

Haymarket is not fit for HST operations, not enough space.

A question from a long way away! Are the power cars and the trailers maintained at the same sites as was the case on the Western? Or are the coaches maintained at one depot and the power cars somewhere else?

On the Western the HSTs ran complete to the depots such as Old Oak Common in London or Laira in Plymouth; for day to day maintenance (replacing brake pads, cleaning, etc.) the set was maintained as a complete rake without splitting the train. Obviously the power cars and the coaching stock were on different maintenance cycles so the power cars were changed from time to time as were individual coaches if the need arose. One of the few times the coaches were split on depot was for scheduled examinations of the buckeye couplers but they were then re-coupled.

 

[43096]

that's true, if porterbrook are willing to give stuff away for free, then I'm sure they could give a reasonable figure to provide EC HSTs to Scotrail.

Porterbrook only have five of the East Coast sets (EC61-64 and NL65); the other ten (EC51-60) are Angel owned.

There is also an assumption that the LNER sets are available from December; we don’t actually know if there is anything lined up for them.

 

[Goldromans]

Are the power cars and the trailers maintained at the same sites as was the case on the Western? Or are the coaches maintained at one depot and the power cars somewhere else?

If I remember correctly, the primary depot for the power cars is Haymarket, while the coaches will primarily be maintained at Inverness.

 

[Speed43125]

Porterbrook only have five of the East Coast sets (EC61-64 and NL65); the other ten (EC51-60) are Angel owned.

There is also an assumption that the LNER sets are available from December; we don’t actually know if there is anything lined up for them.

I've heard lots of talk of them replacing the VP185s operated by EMT (now EMR), as the EC HSTs are more PRM compliant.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but EMR sets are former Class 254s correct? therefore the mk.3s at least should be in better condition (no dawlish sea showers), and therefore could they be used?
Even so, that would no doubt leave at least a few LNER sets left over. If it's all Angel trains stock, why not provide some better stock to convert given all the crap that's been happening so far?

 

[scotraildriver]

The project manager has already sated that are no alternatives to GWR Mk3s and that all the East Coast ones are spoken for after December so its already been investigated and ehausted.

 

[Speed43125]

The project manager has already sated that are no alternatives to GWR Mk3s and that all the East Coast ones are spoken for after December so its already been investigated and ehausted.

Well that's a real shame. Let's just hope everyone involved can just get their act together from here on out then!

 

[Highland37]

If I recall correctly, Scotrail are refusing to accept any more sets until they are in a satisfactory condition. This, coupled with the slow progress from Wabtec to release even faulty sets, has slowed the programme further meaning that there is little chance the planned numbers will be in service come Christmas.

 

[Northhighland]

Think consideration should be given to Compensating passengers on short formed services soon.

If it is good enough for Northern then should be good enough for ScotRail passengers.

Might focus some minds.

 

[Speed43125]

Think consideration should be given to Compensating passengers on short formed services soon.

If it is good enough for Northern then should be good enough for ScotRail passengers.

Might focus some minds.

If you mean that stuff on Pacer trains, I am extremely skeptical of that ever happening, and it having any use other than as a vote grab.

 

[Killingworth]

If you mean that stuff on Pacer trains, I am extremely skeptical of that ever happening, and it having any use other than as a vote grab.

Absolutely. Northern are very similar to Scotrail, except no reserved seats are ever available, more trains get cancelled but journeys are mostly shorter. Type and length of trains is arbitrary and fare collection haphazard, so any reduction in fares wouldn't be noticed by many who don't get the chance to pay when guards can hardly get in the train!

Total political posturing.

 

[InvHst]

Simple facts are come December majority of classic hsts won't be in service as they aren't allowed to use them. 10 weeks to get the current refurb fleet up to scratch and consistent running. Will it happen? Will it hell and their are gonna be some angry commuters when their train is severely short formed which will happen come this changeover and I think scotrail need to accept this and let the public know. Can see those who commute on the fife circle enjoying their 2 car trains rather than all the extra carrieges they were promised

 

[EE Andy b1]

I know not HSTs but why don't Scotrail get better use out of the Class 68 LHCS in use on the Fifes, instead of just the 2 trains into Edinburgh in the morning and the 2 trains back out late afternoon. Could these not be better used through the day on Edinburgh - Aberdeen or such like. I believe they are DRS drivers so maybe that's the problem. Perhaps would help until Scotrail get more reliable 7cities HST sets.

 

[hwl]

Simple facts are come December majority of classic hsts won't be in service as they aren't allowed to use them. 10 weeks to get the current refurb fleet up to scratch and consistent running. Will it happen? Will it hell and their are gonna be some angry commuters when their train is severely short formed which will happen come this changeover and I think scotrail need to accept this and let the public know. Can see those who commute on the fife circle enjoying their 2 car trains rather than all the extra carrieges they were promised

Most other TOCs will be getting derogations for several months (or permanently for minor issues) so why not Scotrail?

 

[EE Andy b1]

Most other TOCs will be getting derogations for several months (or permanently for minor issues) so why not Scotrail?

Was it not because of the promise to RMT and there track workers?

 

[47271]

My post #9929 on the subject of the classics getting canned in December didn't come out of the blue, I've heard the story from more than one Scotrail member of staff. Just rumours mind.

 

[hwl]

Was it not because of the promise to RMT and there track workers?

Several TOCs are going get caught a bit short of stock if the retention toilet issue is enforced too. Anglia, Northern, TfW in much bigger way than Scotrail (XC far less affected). The date was set because DfT though the PRM deadline would also largely sort the retention tanks issues, but now the PRM deadline was got moved to the right in some cases.

 

[hwl]

My post #9929 on the subject of the classics getting canned in December didn't come out of the blue, I've heard the story from more than one Scotrail member of staff. Just rumours mind.

The key questions:
a) How many fully-refurbed sets will they probably have then?
b) what is the December timetable requirement in terms of sets?
c) how complete will training (both driver and guard) by December?
d) what happened to the Scotrail tendering for the retention toilet upgrades separately?

Most driver training should be able to be carried out with refurbished power cars + unconverted coaches hence a bit of a training holiday from the end of the December timetable should release some more refurbished sets? But enough to make a useful difference?

 

[Northhighland]

Absolutely. Northern are very similar to Scotrail, except no reserved seats are ever available, more trains get cancelled but journeys are mostly shorter. Type and length of trains is arbitrary and fare collection haphazard, so any reduction in fares wouldn't be noticed by many who don't get the chance to pay when guards can hardly get in the train!

Total political posturing.

I think the case is much stronger in 3-3.5 hour journeys to abs from Inverness /Aberdeen.

Edinburgh to Glasgow passengers were compensated fir poor service so I don’t see why passengers suffering for much longer shouldn’t be compensated.

Scotrail have had plenty time to plan all this. They have made a total bollox of it. Why should I pay £70 return to find no seat reservation and have to stand from Edinburgh to Perth?

If the service isn’t being provided then the fare should be adjusted accordingly.

 

[Killingworth]

I think the case is much stronger in 3-3.5 hour journeys to abs from Inverness /Aberdeen.

Edinburgh to Glasgow passengers were compensated fir poor service so I don’t see why passengers suffering for much longer shouldn’t be compensated.

Scotrail have had plenty time to plan all this. They have made a total bollox of it. Why should I pay £70 return to find no seat reservation and have to stand from Edinburgh to Perth?

If the service isn’t being provided then the fare should be adjusted accordingly.

I'd agree up to the points of practicality and effect.

Firstly you'd have to reduce all the fares on the routes in question until an uncertain date, thereby compensating those who suffer the same as those who travel in comfort on converted stock (excluding delay repay). That would cost Scotrail significantly and ultimately end up being covered by government.

Secondly, it wouldn't encourage most of those currently being driven away to use trains because they'll be avoiding them at any price. Any so attracted would soon have the same view.

Thirdly, it might have limited effect by making the threat - but will be seen to suffer from the flaws above.

However, those frantically working on the ground to get things fixed will probably find all their many months of hard work to get things right will culminate with a new management team being brought in late in the day to claim the credit. That's life!

Reduce fares when the capacity is there, that may help get business back and stay back. In 2 years, trying to be optimistic!

 

[S N Barnes]

Anyone update on the 'locking out' of the bike spaces in the HST power cars? It isn't clear whether this is a staff competence/training issue, an issue with the fire suppression system (what's on the 3 red cylinders these days? CO2/BCF/?) One apparently broke loose and fell down? Or is it the door closing security (post New Southgate door loss incident?) The end result is from the original promise of 20 spaces, and the 4 car vice 5 car working, we've just 2 bike spaces on the trains, and these have some critical problems.

Perhaps the most critical was the full emergency brake application that happened when the bike of Scotland's Active Travel Commissioner, which would not fit completely into the space provided, smashed the emergency door release cover and activated the door release lever. She was thrown off the train at Perth, and not very pleased about this. This cover lines up perfectly with the handlebars of any bike swinging around which cannot fully fit into the cupboard.

 

[Speed43125]

I know not HSTs but why don't Scotrail get better use out of the Class 68 LHCS in use on the Fifes, instead of just the 2 trains into Edinburgh in the morning and the 2 trains back out late afternoon. Could these not be better used through the day on Edinburgh - Aberdeen or such like. I believe they are DRS drivers so maybe that's the problem. Perhaps would help until Scotrail get more reliable 7cities HST sets.

They are indeed DRS drivers, I'm not sure if they sign anything up the HML or EDI->ABD line, but those trains have no DBSO or DVT and far as I know, there are no turning facilities at QST. so would at best be a much more infrequent service, and Mk2s aren't exactly the last word incomfort.

 

[Far north 37]

They are indeed DRS drivers, I'm not sure if they sign anything up the HML or EDI->ABD line, but those trains have no DBSO or DVT and far as I know, there are no turning facilities at QST. so would at best be a much more infrequent service, and Mk2s aren't exactly the last word incomfort.

Drs drivers sign the highland mainline and up the far north line as well also drs do a daily freight to aberdeen as well so route knowledge wouldn’t be a problem but its all hypothetical anyway i suppose.

 

[Highland37]

The key questions:
a) How many fully-refurbed sets will they probably have then?
b) what is the December timetable requirement in terms of sets?
c) how complete will training (both driver and guard) by December?
d) what happened to the Scotrail tendering for the retention toilet upgrades separately?

Most driver training should be able to be carried out with refurbished power cars + unconverted coaches hence a bit of a training holiday from the end of the December timetable should release some more refurbished sets? But enough to make a useful difference?

And a key question is regardless of the actual number delivered, how many of them will be available for service and capable of delivering it?

 

[PG]

And a key question is regardless of the actual number delivered, how many of them will be available for service and capable of delivering it?

I rather think that number will fluctuate on a daily basis!

 

[mde]

I know not HSTs but why don't Scotrail get better use out of the Class 68 LHCS in use on the Fifes, instead of just the 2 trains into Edinburgh in the morning and the 2 trains back out late afternoon. Could these not be better used through the day on Edinburgh - Aberdeen or such like. I believe they are DRS drivers so maybe that's the problem. Perhaps would help until Scotrail get more reliable 7cities HST sets.

Introducing such a service would certainly cause some difficulty… the coaches are less PRM compliant than the 'classic' Mk3 HST coaches, and, have no facilities at all for passengers with mobility impairments.

A rail replacement taxi from Edinburgh to Aberdeen would certainly not be pleasant!

 

[BRX]

I've just spent a couple of days in Cornwall. Loads of 2+4 HSTs (mix of classic and refurb) shuttling around without any drama as far as I could see. The idea that the HSTs fundamentally aren't up to the job seems implausible to me. The question is what's the difference between the GWR and scotrail implementation that is causing the problems.

Saw quite a few people baffled by slam doors by the way. That surprised me, as that's what's been in regular use on that line until very recently. It wasn't just younger folk who seemed clueless.

 

[Highland37]

Anyone update on the 'locking out' of the bike spaces in the HST power cars? It isn't clear whether this is a staff competence/training issue, an issue with the fire suppression system (what's on the 3 red cylinders these days? CO2/BCF/?) One apparently broke loose and fell down? Or is it the door closing security (post New Southgate door loss incident?) The end result is from the original promise of 20 spaces, and the 4 car vice 5 car working, we've just 2 bike spaces on the trains, and these have some critical problems.

Perhaps the most critical was the full emergency brake application that happened when the bike of Scotland's Active Travel Commissioner, which would not fit completely into the space provided, smashed the emergency door release cover and activated the door release lever. She was thrown off the train at Perth, and not very pleased about this. This cover lines up perfectly with the handlebars of any bike swinging around which cannot fully fit into the cupboard.

There are a few errors in your post. She was getting off the train at Perth and the glass was smashed while the train was stationary. I know this as I spoke to her last week.

Like you say, the bike situation is an utter farce for 2019.

 

[InvHst]

The key questions:
a) How many fully-refurbed sets will they probably have then?
b) what is the December timetable requirement in terms of sets?
c) how complete will training (both driver and guard) by December?
d) what happened to the Scotrail tendering for the retention toilet upgrades separately?

Most driver training should be able to be carried out with refurbished power cars + unconverted coaches hence a bit of a training holiday from the end of the December timetable should release some more refurbished sets? But enough to make a useful difference?

A - possibly may have 1 more than currently so in total 8.

B- considering this timetable started with 13 diagrams and now reduced to 10 I can see 10 being needed but no idea what will happen until changeover day.

C- training is ongoing they have separate rotas for HST trained or not so that's not the problem the problem is the maintenance of units and the faults occurring. Gwr would probably be able to fix the faults in under a night where as our teams don't have the experience and training at all. They have enough guards and driver's trained on classics and refurbs for all the units to vary to all locations now.
D- that's gone very quiet on that front.

The issue with training is their is only one recognised training HST in the fleet to cover all the depots which means if a specific depot wants to train staff then they have to take a service HST which replaces that with a 170 if they don't have the training unit.

We haven't even seen some of the refurbs that are back from Doncaster in service yet Inverness has one sat in the depot inside been their for at least 3 months. Remember they have currently at least 10 classic units and 7 refurbs in the country and can't operate 10 diagrams that's pretty awful

 

[Northhighland]

A - possibly may have 1 more than currently so in total 8.

B- considering this timetable started with 13 diagrams and now reduced to 10 I can see 10 being needed but no idea what will happen until changeover day.

C- training is ongoing they have separate rotas for HST trained or not so that's not the problem the problem is the maintenance of units and the faults occurring. Gwr would probably be able to fix the faults in under a night where as our teams don't have the experience and training at all. They have enough guards and driver's trained on classics and refurbs for all the units to vary to all locations now.
D- that's gone very quiet on that front.

The issue with training is their is only one recognised training HST in the fleet to cover all the depots which means if a specific depot wants to train staff then they have to take a service HST which replaces that with a 170 if they don't have the training unit.

We haven't even seen some of the refurbs that are back from Doncaster in service yet Inverness has one sat in the depot inside been their for at least 3 months. Remember they have currently at least 10 classic units and 7 refurbs in the country and can't operate 10 diagrams that's pretty awful

Surely if the problem is now the length of time to fix the power cars there are a couple of things that can help.

First is a few more spare power cars. I realise only recurved power cars can work with recurved coaches but classic sets are currently working with refurbed power cars so surely a few extra would help?

The teams have shown before they are capable enough. So surely this is just additional training. I would imagine a loco is totally different to a DMU. AlSo can help not be sourced from GWR? Even one fitter with experience can help the team gain confidence.

 

[43096]

The teams have shown before they are capable enough. So surely this is just additional training. I would imagine a loco is totally different to a DMU. AlSo can help not be sourced from GWR? Even one fitter with experience can help the team gain confidence.

Remember that First lost the ScotRail franchise to Abellio. Cooperation probably not going to be very high!