ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by Clansman, 12 Nov 2016.

  1. 47271

    47271 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,638
    Joined:
    28 Apr 2015
    I'm past commenting on this on here, unless I have new facts to impart. The situation is an absolute disgrace as a failure of Scotrail, Transport Scotland and Scottish Government. It seems that now electric services are working well in the central belt then the Scottish media and the political opposition have moved from Scotrail as a story.

    Everyone contributing to this thread would better spending their typing fingers applying relentless pressure to their MSPs over what should have been a transformational project for the whole country. As it is the intercity service is worse than it was 15 years ago, but somehow they seem to be getting away with it.
     
  2. Highland37

    Highland37 Member

    Messages:
    1,138
    Joined:
    29 Jun 2012
    I am going to take your advice. The HSTs should be scrapped and new stock ordered. Easier said than done so for the next years get the bus. This project is never going to deliver.
     
  3. CEN60

    CEN60 Member

    Messages:
    83
    Joined:
    17 Dec 2018
    The original depot scheme as far as I understood - had to not preclude future electrification!
     
  4. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

    Messages:
    20,656
    Joined:
    28 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Scotland
    If the money tree was shaken and an order placed today, my guess would be late 2021 before trains hit the tracks. As bad as the situation is, at this point the only sensible option is to patch up the HSTs and get a reliable baseline service up and running.

    As I noted above, any new stock ordered today would have to be all diesel since only about 40 out of roughly 450 miles of the Intercity network is electrified. In 10-15 years time there should be wires to Aberdeen and Perth (possibly further north?), and any new trains ordered now will be less than halfway through their lifespan. And people will be complaining about running so much diesel under the wires.
     
  5. Highland37

    Highland37 Member

    Messages:
    1,138
    Joined:
    29 Jun 2012
    So how long do you propose to wait before a new order should be placed? How long are you expecting the HSTs to be in service for?

    More likely they will never enter full service and it will be units for the next five years.
     
  6. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

    Messages:
    20,656
    Joined:
    28 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Scotland
    In a perfect world, I'd expect to get about 10 years out of the HSTs. Being more realistic, 2025 is probably about the best we can hope for.

    If we do go for a new fleet order now, the best idea would be something along the lines of the Stadler FLIRT - a centralised power module that can be removed/replaced with a pantograph car.
     
  7. Highland37

    Highland37 Member

    Messages:
    1,138
    Joined:
    29 Jun 2012
    Wow. So millions are spent on rolling stock which might last five years, isn't reliable and only a fraction of which has actually been delivered.

    I wrote to my MSP last night and got an immediate response. Apparently many people are complaining.
     
  8. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

    Messages:
    20,656
    Joined:
    28 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Scotland
    Yes, as I said a few posts back it's clear that some mistakes have been made. The HSTs should have had a 10 to 15 year lifespan, and may still be able to achieve it. But it's only prudent to start looking at a Plan B, which would see an order for 'convertible hybrids' in around five years or so.

    Edit: Left out the word 'mistakes'
     
    Last edited: 20 Nov 2019
  9. GrimShady

    GrimShady On Moderation

    Messages:
    1,728
    Joined:
    13 Dec 2016
    Lots of spare MkIVs going round soon along with lots of 67s with nothing to do.

    Not ideal traction......but it works.
     
  10. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

    Messages:
    20,656
    Joined:
    28 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Scotland
    I seem to remember when this was suggested previously that there were clearance issues - it might have been Killiecrankie tunnel.
     
  11. GrimShady

    GrimShady On Moderation

    Messages:
    1,728
    Joined:
    13 Dec 2016
    Scuppered then :(

    Aren't they the same length with MkIV being slightly narrower profile for tilt?
     
  12. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

    Messages:
    20,656
    Joined:
    28 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Scotland
    I can't remember the details, it was a discussion a while back about future stock for the HML. I recall discussion that they aren't cleared for the route - which makes sense given that they were never going to operate the line - then someone mentioned a problem with getting them cleared and Killicrankie comes to mind as the most obvious show stopper.
     
  13. cf111

    cf111 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,216
    Joined:
    13 Nov 2012
    Track access charges as well as gauging issues, 67s are hard on track.
     
  14. GrimShady

    GrimShady On Moderation

    Messages:
    1,728
    Joined:
    13 Dec 2016
    Granted there's no ideal fully functioning rolling stock but something has to give. 67s have been given authorisation to run at MU speeds elsewhere in the UK.

    ScotRail or someone is going to have to cough up to get a reliable service. If that means shelling out on access charges then tough luck IMO.
     
  15. RLBH

    RLBH Member

    Messages:
    875
    Joined:
    17 May 2018
    As are Mark 4 coaches, for that matter. For some reason they have much higher track access charges than other coaching stock.
     
  16. option

    option Member

    Messages:
    443
    Joined:
    1 Aug 2017

    There's some info on tunnels here;
    https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/limiting-structures-on-highland-mainline.138030/
     
  17. cf111

    cf111 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,216
    Joined:
    13 Nov 2012
    I absolutely agree and the 67s are a known quantity after running the Sleeper for so long, but I don't think this is the route they will take. It seems to be firmly "fingers in the ears" time at TS and Scotrail.

    I was on a Cross Country HST yesterday and it seemed to make it from Plymouth to Glasgow OK. Wonder what's gone right there?
     
  18. GrimShady

    GrimShady On Moderation

    Messages:
    1,728
    Joined:
    13 Dec 2016
    The whole project is such a bitter disappointment. Right on the cusp of bringing back decent InterCity travel to Scotland only to have it ruined by the usual rubbish management that seems to infect the entire UK in multiple industries.
     
  19. PG

    PG Member

    Messages:
    630
    Joined:
    12 Oct 2010
    That about sums up the whole HST/Scotland's best ever railway guff they've spun the public.
     
  20. cf111

    cf111 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,216
    Joined:
    13 Nov 2012
    I have managed to get one classic HST and one refurbished one since the turn of the year. Its been 170s or a single 158 most of the time. The HSTs are nice when they are done up but the ride on both of them was horrific even in the middle of the coach. Its difficult not to think that the mk3s in Scotland are done or at least in a worse condition that expected but I don't have any evidence to back up that speculation. Maybe I was just unlucky, but as another point the LNER HST I was on from Aberdeen to Edinburgh recently was much the same.

    The 158 refurbishment has been done well. I use them often on the FNL and they are the ideal (realistic) train for the route. Smooth over jointed track, power and WiFi both of which work the majority of the time, plenty of luggage space and fitted with retention tanks. I also like the 385s now the bugs have been worked out, I think that they are excellent trains. Outside of those positives it's a fairly grim look for Scotrail from my point of view.

    Someone mentioned an issue with the new doors - I though that it was well known that installing them was difficult? Did nobody in Scotland do their homework?

    Five coach diesel units should have been ordered, probably IET derivatives. They aren't perfect but they would have been new and worked "out of the box". Of course there would be some issues but people will put up with that if they could see light at the end of the tunnel rather than this farce. Yes there would still be an engine underneath the floor but some pragmatism is required. Only a tiny minority of people would see this as a major issue especially if its a straight shootout between an IET or a jam packed two coach 158 or a 170 with nowhere to put your case.
     
  21. cf111

    cf111 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,216
    Joined:
    13 Nov 2012
    Yes it is galling. And Queen Street has been a grim, dank building site for so long I'm struggling to remember what it used to look like.
     
  22. snakeeyes

    snakeeyes Member

    Messages:
    183
    Joined:
    7 Jun 2011
    Two, yes two! refurbished
    Scotrail HST at Aberdeen just now
     
  23. GrimShady

    GrimShady On Moderation

    Messages:
    1,728
    Joined:
    13 Dec 2016
    I still think they are far, far too antiseptic and not the best ride at all, however having said that they are quick and have a good layout. I think i'm one of the very few that actually likes the exteriors.
     
  24. GrimShady

    GrimShady On Moderation

    Messages:
    1,728
    Joined:
    13 Dec 2016
    The really, really need to get something down about the WHL. 30 years of 156 is enough!
     
  25. Highland37

    Highland37 Member

    Messages:
    1,138
    Joined:
    29 Jun 2012
    I've just been to Inverness Station. No sign of HSTs as per usual.

    How many sets are at Wabtec, ready to be released?
     
  26. InOban

    InOban Established Member

    Messages:
    2,380
    Joined:
    12 Mar 2017
    If they're serviceable, wouldn't they all be in use at this time of day?
     
  27. Highland37

    Highland37 Member

    Messages:
    1,138
    Joined:
    29 Jun 2012
    This is depressing reading. I quickly perused my copy of "Modern Railways" earlier which mentions the Frejus Tunnel. Opened in 1871 and on such a different scale to Killicrankie that the two shouldn't be compared. But here we are in 2019 evidencing why more historic, diesel, stock cannot be introduced to replaced a failed programme of introducing very old and worn trains on a key service.

    The least worst option might be to order more 170s (I jest!). Are Pacers more reliable that Scotrail's HSTs?
     
  28. toot toot

    toot toot Member

    Messages:
    43
    Joined:
    25 Aug 2011
    I might be wrong here! once the E&G line was fully electrified and running with 385 then wouldnt this have created a surplus of 170’s which could have been used to strengthen services instead of giving them to Northern.
     
  29. Highland37

    Highland37 Member

    Messages:
    1,138
    Joined:
    29 Jun 2012
    It's history now. RAIL are reporting that Scotrail will have 10 sets by Christmas.

    I don't know if that is in addition to the classics.
     
  30. PG

    PG Member

    Messages:
    630
    Joined:
    12 Oct 2010
    It must be true I tell ye, look here it is in black and white...
    Even if they do have 10 sets by Xmas [is Santa bringing them?] whether they can reliably operate them is another matter altogether.
     

Share This Page