ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by Clansman, 12 Nov 2016.

  1. GrimShady

    GrimShady On Moderation

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    I wasn't suggesting the public, staff can do it. It discharges into the engine room and not the PC van compartment. The engine room door should be gas tight as if it's not the next door aft has to be...which it's not. The only consideration should be leaking bottles in which case a gas detector should be fitted.

    Its was discussed here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/light-engine-hst.194456/

    43096 will be along at some point to confirm this.
     
    Last edited: 22 Nov 2019
  2. Maxfly

    Maxfly Member

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    It is because you are stating the HST project is a disaster (true) but this failure is not (at least in my view) down to the machines. The way Scotrail operate their fleet as a whole appears to be lacking with an inability or want to actually bed down issues quickly and efficiently. I suspect this is the case when it is likely to cost them money, the 385's were fixed quickly and appear to be running and bedding in fairly well, this would be down to warranty. The fact that their other fleets 170's, 156's etc have recurring issues of varying types would suggest to me they require expenditure by Scotrail so get the old patch and make do or ignore the problem method. This in turn suggest that if the HST's issues were down to wabtec then the issues would be sorted out quicker but this is not happening, so suggests to me that the onus is mainly on scotrail as these issues are 'their' problem for whatever reason.
    A machine is only as reliable if maintained/repaired correctly and this can only happen if the 'owner' provides the correct 'tools' for the job.
    The MTIN figures quoted earlier in the thread, although i understand they don't cover everything, show a great disparity between HST fleets which suggests an operator problem.
     
  3. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    Utter dribble. That is not a reason to not use it. If you understand how the system works - which has been explained previously on here - then you would know it is a pathetic excuse.
     
  4. kylemore

    kylemore Member

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    The first time I saw one of these things was when I stepped off a 385 at Queen St a few months ago and one was standing across the platform - I thought I had travelled back in time, grubby, spewing fumes and amazingly noisy.

    1970s technology masquerading as the solution to 2020s Intercity travel.

    If we really must have museum rejects for our intercity services can we please have class 40s and steam heated mark1 compartment stock?
     
  5. GrimShady

    GrimShady On Moderation

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    Nosiy? The MTU engines are quieter than a 170 and that includes under acceleration.
     
  6. kylemore

    kylemore Member

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    Not my impression - maybe something to do with the engines being above platform level as opposed to below?
     
  7. GrimShady

    GrimShady On Moderation

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    I've witnessed a good few departures and been unaware of the HST moving off. 170 on the other hand always make a racket.

    Even the LNER 43s are much quieter than a 185 or Voyager.
     
    Last edited: 22 Nov 2019
  8. Journeyman

    Journeyman Established Member

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    Oh god, don't get started on where the engines are again...
     
  9. GrimShady

    GrimShady On Moderation

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    Just witnessed a classic passing Bishopbriggs heading north.
     
  10. Highland37

    Highland37 Established Member

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    Eh? What do you suggest they do to "bed them in"? How is a machine failing not down to the machine. It exists for the a sole purpose. There is no point in having it if it can't do what you want.

    One thing MTIN figures show, the HST isn't as reliable as more modern traction when maintained properly. This is a combination of machine and abysmal management. Either way, the railway has to sort it out.

    Any relevant information from the diagrams planned today? Are they going to plan?
     
  11. Kingspanner

    Kingspanner Member

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    So, there's a company called Brodie's in Scotland which does rail vehicle maintenance is there?
    Does that explain this graffiti seen in Tees Yard last year? Bawbag crop.jpg
     
  12. Kingspanner

    Kingspanner Member

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    BTW no offence intended to Brodie, whoever they are.
     
  13. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    It's perhaps what the excuse is rather than perhaps the reason.
     
  14. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    I know that, I was just stating what the given reason was.
     
  15. GrimShady

    GrimShady On Moderation

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    Could it have been a bad PC?

    MTUs fitted are notoriously quiet and very smoke free these days, just a slow grumble has they go past. The Valentas on the other hand screamed powering up and used to make quite a bit of clag.

    Lots of MTU examples on YouTube.

    Azuma on diesel makes a ridiculous amount of noise for a modern train.
     
  16. marks87

    marks87 Established Member

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    Didn't ScotRail originally plan to have bikes in the power cars for end-to-end journeys?

    The supposed rationale for end-to-end only being to reduce dwell times at stations because on-board staff were required to retrieve the bikes.
     
  17. 380101

    380101 Member

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    I believe that graffiti (carried out on the wagon whilst sitting at Falkland Yard in Ayr) was directed at a DBCargo manager who wasn't very popular with the driver's and ground staff. There was plenty of chat about it amongst the ex DB driver's at my depot who knew "Brodie".
     
  18. Paul Kerr

    Paul Kerr Member

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    The useless things never appear, do they? How do you explain this then?

    upload_2019-11-22_11-39-12.png

    Your sweeping generalisations with no data to back them up and what appears to be a condescending tone with people who have a different opinion from yours quite frankly don't do you any favours. I don't agree with you but I do respect your opinion. I respectfully ask that you afford me and others the same courtesy.

    As for the "we should have had all 26 sets by this time last year", you well know that a large portion of that was down to the IETs not being ready in time to release the HST stock for it to be cascaded. We would have been in the same boat with refurbished 170s due to the 385s not being ready. The Mk5's are late. The Azumas are late. The Stadler bimodes are late. New stock is not the cure-all that you make it out to be.

    As far as your question on when should we call time on it and look at the data? The rate of delivery should pick up now that the GWR and XC refurbs are done, and the ScotRail crews need more time to get to grips with the nuances of working with what are effectively locos and hauled stock. I say give them 6 more months and we can make a reasonable comparison then. Does that sound reasonable to you?
     
    Last edited: 22 Nov 2019
  19. Speed43125

    Speed43125 Member

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    While I have and continue to agree with you, I think we could largely agree, by summer 2020 they have to get an increased capacity service in place, I don't care if that means about 10 daily HSTs plus doubled DMUs that such numbers would facilitate or otherwise, but if by next year we've had a summer of frequent singular 158 services then we can agree there are serious issues, and we should consider if the rolling stock chosen was right.
     
  20. Kingspanner

    Kingspanner Member

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    Thank you for this extraordinary intelligence. I used to see that wagon every day on the way to work. I took the photo to show a colleague who used to use the phrase "gnat's bawhair width" to describe narrow things. He'll be delighted by the internet's power to solve little mysteries.
     
  21. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    The cycle rank installation was after the installation of the Inergen fire system.
     
  22. Paul Kerr

    Paul Kerr Member

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    Yes, I agree with you there. I think they need a few more months to get to grips with what to them are new trains. I think 6 months is a reasonable timeframe. More diagrams are starting to be covered by refurb HSTs so (touch wood:)) they're starting to turn things around
     
  23. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    They don't "magically" get more reliable - but age is not a barrier to reliability.

    As for your second sentence, I'm not sure you understand the difference between availability (no of trains available for service) and reliability (how often they fail or not when in service).
     
  24. Paul Kerr

    Paul Kerr Member

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    I see where you are coming from but keep in mind that for a machine to run it requires targeted maintenance. If an organisation skimps on maintenance (which appeared to happen at GWR), a crew lacks the experience to maintain the machine properly and/or the frequency of maintenance on critical components is wrong, the machine is going to fail more often, irrespective of its age. As the crews get more in tune with what moving parts need attention and when, the failure rate goes down. It doesn't matter what train, or equipment in the chemical industry (where I work), or any other mechanised system you are working with- without taking care of the equipment, it's not going to work well. It takes time for the crews to work out what the weak points are and put systems in place to keep them running optimally.

    As was pointed out recently, the last time ScotRail was maintaining locos was at Eastfield in 1990 when we had the Class 47/4s and 47/7s on internal services. It's a steep learning curve to switch from multiple units which have a completely different drive train to locomotives (hydraulic or mechanical transmission vs alternators and traction motors on locomotives).
     
  25. weatherman222

    weatherman222 Member

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    That is certainly the case. 2 in each of the front and rear power cars for end to end journeys plus the two (or one realistically) hanging space in the carriage, so six in total
    There has been no notification / news article / PR announcement informing anyone of any change.... so if that plan has been ditched it has been done with no transparency
     
  26. GrimShady

    GrimShady On Moderation

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    It should be noted the 158s when first introduced were an absolute nightmare. Failing all over the E&G to the point the fleet was taken out of service and 156s drafted in. Many a time I witnessed 158s being dragged to Eastfield complete failures on the line.
     
  27. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    I thought it was teething issues and late delivery lead to temporary 156 use before the 158s entered service, rather than 156s replacing them after they had entered passenger traffic?
     
  28. Paul Kerr

    Paul Kerr Member

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    I remember they used to call them Scuds after the Saddam Hussein regime's missiles because once they departed you never knew where they would end up :) the vast majority the new designs we have seen in recent years seem to be beset by teething problems of some sort.
     
  29. cf111

    cf111 Established Member

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    Did one not split in half while in service or something equally apocalyptic (in railway terms)? I might be thinking of another unit.
     
  30. JModulo

    JModulo Member

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    I pass Kilmarnock on my way to work every morning, noticed this morning when I passed that the shutter doors were up and there appears to be several (atleast 4) painted, new doors etc Mk3s inside.
     

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