• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

Paul Kerr

Member
Joined
6 Nov 2017
Messages
143
The original spec had the ATP kit as being isolated but not removed. The major item that was de-scoped from the original spec was the electronics upgrade (which all TOCs except GWR have done) despite it having a good cost:benefit as it includes new WSP electronics that significantly extend bogie and wheelset life.

If your attitude towards "bean counters" in real life was anything like that displayed in your post, I'm not surprised they didn't believe you. If you can't get a non-technical person to understand, maybe the issue was the way you explained it?

Agreed on the explanation/presentation comment. With management, it's how you present the data that typically makes all the difference whether the message is heard or not.

Out of interest, what is the approximate cost per power car for the WSP upgrade?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

gingertom

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2017
Messages
1,256
Location
Kilsyth
The original spec had the ATP kit as being isolated but not removed. The major item that was de-scoped from the original spec was the electronics upgrade (which all TOCs except GWR have done) despite it having a good cost:benefit as it includes new WSP electronics that significantly extend bogie and wheelset life.

If your attitude towards "bean counters" in real life was anything like that displayed in your post, I'm not surprised they didn't believe you. If you can't get a non-technical person to understand, maybe the issue was the way you explained it?
the bean counters concerned weren't interested in the technicalities. All they were interested in was the cost of a widget, not the value of it or its function. The spreadsheet ruled.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,269
the bean counters concerned weren't interested in the technicalities. All they were interested in was the cost of a widget, not the value of it or its function. The spreadsheet ruled.
Thanks for confirming it was you and your attitude.
 

James James

Member
Joined
29 Jan 2018
Messages
426
the bean counters concerned weren't interested in the technicalities. All they were interested in was the cost of a widget, not the value of it or its function. The spreadsheet ruled.
That's when you need to add long-term maintance and failure costs in the costs that are shown to the bean counters :).

(I'm not blaming you or anyone, just trying to be funny in light of what seems to be an all too common situation across industries...)
 

herb21

Member
Joined
19 Jul 2018
Messages
80
And the cost of it would appear on the P&L Account, not the Balance Sheet. So obviously you understand the bean counters expertise as little as you think they understand yours.

That would depend.... I dont work in the rail industry (and I know they have weird investment models) but normally, if it was repairs and maintenance it would be expensed directly. Removing a component from the asset could lead to an impairment of the underlying asset (depends if the component is fully depreciated and if it could be separately recongised). Replacing an asset or installing an upgrade would normally give rise to an increase in the asset value which would be expensed through depreciation. However, this is all likely not what the "bean counter" was worried about, my guess is it was a capital budgeting exercise in which case you would be assessing net cashflows. If its capital budgeting the key things are the availability of current cash to spend and how that spend influences the net present value of the future cash flows.
 

Brissle Girl

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2018
Messages
2,619
That would depend.... I dont work in the rail industry (and I know they have weird investment models) but normally, if it was repairs and maintenance it would be expensed directly. Removing a component from the asset could lead to an impairment of the underlying asset (depends if the component is fully depreciated and if it could be separately recongised). Replacing an asset or installing an upgrade would normally give rise to an increase in the asset value which would be expensed through depreciation. However, this is all likely not what the "bean counter" was worried about, my guess is it was a capital budgeting exercise in which case you would be assessing net cashflows. If its capital budgeting the key things are the availability of current cash to spend and how that spend influences the net present value of the future cash flows.
And further complicated by which company we are considering, the TOC or the lessor. If the lessor paid and chose to add the cost to the leasing costs then it would appear in P&L's for the next few years. I doubt for such a small item they would choose to increase the value of the asset on the Balance Sheet. If the TOC was paying then there wouldn't be an asset for a value to be increased by.

Still, all academic in comparison with having a robust service.
 

Railperf

Established Member
Joined
30 Oct 2017
Messages
2,941
the bean counters concerned weren't interested in the technicalities. All they were interested in was the cost of a widget, not the value of it or its function. The spreadsheet ruled.
Surely the costs of adding wsp would be covered by reduced late running and less wear on wheelsets/ track and reduced fuel usage??
Or is it cheaper to add a few minutes into the WTT and ask drivers to be more gentle with them?
 

herb21

Member
Joined
19 Jul 2018
Messages
80
And further complicated by which company we are considering, the TOC or the lessor. If the lessor paid and chose to add the cost to the leasing costs then it would appear in P&L's for the next few years. I doubt for such a small item they would choose to increase the value of the asset on the Balance Sheet. If the TOC was paying then there wouldn't be an asset for a value to be increased by.

Still, all academic in comparison with having a robust service.

Completely agree there would be a number of other complications, and that the impact of it alone would probably be immaterial. But if it was done as part of a package of measures it may be material.

Weirdly regarding leasing vs owning, when the project was started, if they are applying IFRS (or FRS 101) it would have been as you say, however given IFRS 16 it would now most likely go onto the lessees balance sheet.

And agree its completely academic.

Not in response to your comment I do find it annoying when people just write-off accountants as not understanding the operational side of the business. Having spent most of my working life as an external auditor, I know that I provide the best service when I understand my clients business from both an operational and financial side, and when I am willing to call in experts if I don't. However, without fail when I have had to deal with clients where either finance team don't understand the operations or the operations team don't understand the finance, it has almost always led to a ****ty audit and business problems down the line. Not everyone needs to get every detail, but when you are at decision making level you need to understand the essence of the what the other side is worrying about.
 

gingertom

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2017
Messages
1,256
Location
Kilsyth
Thanks for confirming it was you and your attitude.
there were 72 of us in the department so no, it wasn't just me who felt that way. Here's the main incident. The workshop kettle blew up so a replacement was sourced. It was a quick boil 3kw and cost £7.99. He blew his top, called a meeting of all 72 staff, at a cost of around £10k, to ask why we hadn't sourced a standard boil 2.4kw costing £6.99. So in future all purchasing had to go through the ordering clerk/ess, which it did anyway, and if he/she could identify a cheaper part/item/widget then it would be substituted. They were given the decision-making power to overrule on a subject they weren't qualified in. History teaches us this is not a good way of doing things.
 

gingertom

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2017
Messages
1,256
Location
Kilsyth
Not in response to your comment I do find it annoying when people just write-off accountants as not understanding the operational side of the business. Having spent most of my working life as an external auditor, I know that I provide the best service when I understand my clients business from both an operational and financial side, and when I am willing to call in experts if I don't. However, without fail when I have had to deal with clients where either finance team don't understand the operations or the operations team don't understand the finance, it has almost always led to a ****ty audit and business problems down the line. Not everyone needs to get every detail, but when you are at decision making level you need to understand the essence of the what the other side is worrying about.
it was put to me at the start that the accountancy team was there to assist us in the preparation and presentation of any business case. A few were very supportive, but most were not. The kettle story in post #11289 summed it all up. I recall getting a scheme bounced because the payback period was too short- too good to be true so it can't be right- total lack of understanding of what was happening. It was one of those no-brainer schemes that cost us a lot by not doing it. C'est la vie.
 

Northhighland

Member
Joined
19 Aug 2016
Messages
606
it was put to me at the start that the accountancy team was there to assist us in the preparation and presentation of any business case. A few were very supportive, but most were not. The kettle story in post #11289 summed it all up. I recall getting a scheme bounced because the payback period was too short- too good to be true so it can't be right- total lack of understanding of what was happening. It was one of those no-brainer schemes that cost us a lot by not doing it. C'est la vie.

Spend my life dealing with the interface between finance and delivery of construction activity. It is my role to explain to accountants what is needed and why. My experience is that there should be no friction if this is explained correctly. No business can run without controlling costs. Accountants are a key part of the business. Good accountants add to the business.
 

gingertom

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2017
Messages
1,256
Location
Kilsyth
Spend my life dealing with the interface between finance and delivery of construction activity. It is my role to explain to accountants what is needed and why. My experience is that there should be no friction if this is explained correctly. No business can run without controlling costs. Accountants are a key part of the business. Good accountants add to the business.
agree with everything you say here, but the key point is "should be no friction". We did not have good people, no amount of explanation got past their mistaken belief that there was some better, cheaper way of achieving the desired result- if there was, we'd already have proposed it. Led to a very hostile working environment.
 

BRX

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
3,629
there were 72 of us in the department so no, it wasn't just me who felt that way. Here's the main incident. The workshop kettle blew up so a replacement was sourced. It was a quick boil 3kw and cost £7.99. He blew his top, called a meeting of all 72 staff, at a cost of around £10k, to ask why we hadn't sourced a standard boil 2.4kw costing £6.99. So in future all purchasing had to go through the ordering clerk/ess, which it did anyway, and if he/she could identify a cheaper part/item/widget then it would be substituted. They were given the decision-making power to overrule on a subject they weren't qualified in. History teaches us this is not a good way of doing things.
How does departmental meeting manage to cost 10k?
 

InOban

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2017
Messages
4,216
Last year, when working HSTs were as rare as hen's teeth, there were regular reports of services operated by 170s which were in dire need of some serious internal maintenance. Can I assume that these have now gone off-lease? Or are they being used for the extra local services through Aberdeen?
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,871
Location
Sheffield
Last year, when working HSTs were as rare as hen's teeth, there were regular reports of services operated by 170s which were in dire need of some serious internal maintenance. Can I assume that these have now gone off-lease? Or are they being used for the extra local services through Aberdeen?

We have some of them now operating on Northern's Sheffield - Hull-Scarborough route. I travelled on two of them a fortnight ago. It seems they're set up for chillier regions as there was no heating on in either of them. Otherwise they're refurbished and seem to be running well.
 
Last edited:

scotraildriver

Established Member
Joined
15 Jun 2009
Messages
1,628
Last year, when working HSTs were as rare as hen's teeth, there were regular reports of services operated by 170s which were in dire need of some serious internal maintenance. Can I assume that these have now gone off-lease? Or are they being used for the extra local services through Aberdeen?
I assume you mean 170416-420 which haven't been refurbished. They are still due to go off lease when enough HSTs are delivered. I wouldn't say they needed serious maintenance but they do retain their original interiors which are getting shabby. Everything still works though.
 

43 302

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2019
Messages
1,624
Location
London
I've heard on this forum that 43 185 is a spare parts donor for ScotRail bit everything seems to suggest that it is in storage at Ely. Does anyone know it's location or whats going to happen to it?
 

John Bishop

Member
Joined
15 Nov 2018
Messages
584
Location
Perth
Probably last chance to get a classic in service over the next couple of days. Very few, if any HSTs out after Sunday.
 

47271

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2015
Messages
2,983
Very few, if any HSTs out after Sunday.
Absolutely - sky high running costs, no need for the extra seating capacity and Scotrail will be operating a reduced timetable easily within the capability of 158s and 170s. Oh well.
 

gingertom

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2017
Messages
1,256
Location
Kilsyth
Absolutely - sky high running costs, no need for the extra seating capacity and Scotrail will be operating a reduced timetable easily within the capability of 158s and 170s. Oh well.
which ought to give the maintenance team a bit of breathing space to get the HSTs some tlc.
 

Speed43125

Member
Joined
20 Jul 2019
Messages
1,136
Location
Dunblane
I will say the classic sets seem to be better at keeping to schedule over the last couple of days. A side effect of less passengers (and therefore shorter dwell times)? or just coincidence?
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,778
Location
Glasgow
More fool Scotrail then. If they can't put together a reduced timetable that temporarily takes the HSTs off the road then they're flushing money down the drain.

Are they? Surely it's prudent enough to retain HSTs in service for several reasons, one of which would be to retain traction knowledge for a start. (And yes, I know that's generally about six months before it expires, but who can predict that the emergency timetables won't last that long?)
 

47271

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2015
Messages
2,983
Are they? Surely it's prudent enough to retain HSTs in service for several reasons, one of which would be to retain traction knowledge for a start. (And yes, I know that's generally about six months before it expires, but who can predict that the emergency timetables won't last that long?)
Fair point on maintenance and knowledge.

I was looking at it purely from the perspective of a service matched to passenger demand, and that could easily be delivered now without the use of HSTs.

Let's see what they do, but I'm sure we'd agree that HSTs zooming around all over the place while 170s are sat in depots wouldn't be the best move.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,269
Fair point on maintenance and knowledge.

I was looking at it purely from the perspective of a service matched to passenger demand, and that could easily be delivered now without the use of HSTs.

Let's see what they do, but I'm sure we'd agree that HSTs zooming around all over the place while 170s are sat in depots wouldn't be the best move.
They’d be best rotating the entire fleet around so that it still gets used. MTU power cars have a liking for losing their coolant if stood for any length of time.
 

BRX

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
3,629
How much more expensive is it to run an HST than a 170? I keep seeing these comments that they use loads more fuel and so on, but they are never backed up with any numbers.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top