ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Steven_G]

Delivery rescheduled for Monday

Realtime Trains - 562W 1321 Doncaster Works Wabtec to Haymarket Depot

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Domh245]

It would be handy if more Mk3s came from the East Coast sets as they were in better nick than the GWs

East Midlands might disagree about that one! By all accounts the East Coast sets were run into the ground before coming off leases

Only yesterday another rake went off to Sims as well, so that's another six or so lost, some of which could have been used as replacements.

The coaches moved from scrap yesterday were TFDs, TGSs, and a single TS. As Scotrail's rakes are formed of TSs and a single TGS scrapping these has no impact. Also worth pointing out that they were porterbrook vehicles, so wouldn't have been available in the first place unless Angel bought them off PB.

 

[DB]

On the cost aspect, who pays? Most commercial transport assets are insured so that shouldn't be a problem.

They will be insured for certain, so the insurers will pay.

I'd hope the set would be replaced. It would be sensible to put another couple of power cars through Brush for the mods. It would be handy if more Mk3s came from the East Coast sets as they were in better nick than the GWs, but these belong to the wrong leasing company. I'm sure that could be fixed but unlikely- been said upthread there's plenty of ex-GW stock at Ely or Long Marston.

It definitely wouldn't make sense to use EC stock (which is actually a mixture of Porterbrook and Angel owned) as it's in poor condition (hence the major delays in in EMR introducing it - a lot of work is needed), and it's got a completely different interior spec to the ex-GWR stock. Power cars are different too. Only logical solution would be more ex-GWR stock.

The stock stored Long Marston probably isn't relevant - that belongs to Porterbrook, and Scotrail is an Angel contract (their storage site is Ely).

 

[DB]

As Scotrail's rakes are formed of TSs and a single TGS scrapping these has no impact.

Not quite! It's three TSs and a first-class with buffet and guard's office - these latter are all modified from a TF when the sets go through Wabtec.

 

[gsnedders]

I would expect they'll scrap the lot and convert a new one. The base vehicles aren't expensive in railway terms, it's nothing like the situation if the same thing had happened to, say, a brand new 80x.

This is surely the important point; the relevant question is "what is the cost of replacement versus the cost of repair?". (Note that this is arguably an oversimplification, as you want to amortize them over their remaining lifespan, and often the new option will have a longer lifespan.)

The cost of the vehicles is near scrap value (and the value of the destroyed vehicles will be near the same); to replace them you have the cost of getting some FoC to haul the replacement to Wabtec, to repair them you somehow have to get the destroyed vehicles to Wabtec which will near certainly be more expensive; then you have the cost of doing another refurb versus repairing, this is a more complicated question but I would be very unsurprised if doing another refurb was cheaper.

That said, depending on what TS foresees happening to the HSTs, the expected delivery date of a replacement set, and how quickly they get replaced under the new electrification scheme I wouldn't be totally unsurprised if no HST was procured to replace it.

 

[DB]

This is surely the important point; the relevant question is "what is the cost of replacement versus the cost of repair?". (Note that this is arguably an oversimplification, as you want to amortize them over their remaining lifespan, and often the new option will have a longer lifespan.)

The cost of the vehicles is near scrap value (and the value of the destroyed vehicles will be near the same); to replace them you have the cost of getting some FoC to haul the replacement to Wabtec, to repair them you somehow have to get the destroyed vehicles to Wabtec which will near certainly be more expensive; then you have the cost of doing another refurb versus repairing, this is a more complicated question but I would be very unsurprised if doing another refurb was cheaper.

That said, depending on what TS foresees happening to the HSTs, the expected delivery date of a replacement set, and how quickly they get replaced under the new electrification scheme I wouldn't be totally unsurprised if no HST was procured to replace it.

Have you seen the pictures? Apart from (possibly) the rear power car, the whole train is completely wrecked - way beyond the stage where repair would be possible. Even the least-damaged coach has obvious structural and severe underframe damage.

 

[irish_rail]

This is surely the important point; the relevant question is "what is the cost of replacement versus the cost of repair?". (Note that this is arguably an oversimplification, as you want to amortize them over their remaining lifespan, and often the new option will have a longer lifespan.)

The cost of the vehicles is near scrap value (and the value of the destroyed vehicles will be near the same); to replace them you have the cost of getting some FoC to haul the replacement to Wabtec, to repair them you somehow have to get the destroyed vehicles to Wabtec which will near certainly be more expensive; then you have the cost of doing another refurb versus repairing, this is a more complicated question but I would be very unsurprised if doing another refurb was cheaper.

That said, depending on what TS foresees happening to the HSTs, the expected delivery date of a replacement set, and how quickly they get replaced under the new electrification scheme I wouldn't be totally unsurprised if no HST was procured to replace it.

No chance of repair (except perhaps 43030). Look at ufton. 43019 could relatively easily have been repaired at a time when there were no spare HSTs knocking about, but FGW retired and scrapped it out of respect for the loss of the driver. With lots of stored stock, I think it's fair to say stock will be refurbished to replace the unfortunate power car and set. This is unless lack of passengers leads to dft cutting back services....
Probably more chance of the Pope denouncing Catholicism than there is of seeing say 43140 in service ever again.

 

[DB]

No chance of repair (except perhaps 43030). Look at ufton. 43019 could relatively easily have been repaired at a time when there were no spare HSTs knocking about, but FGW retired and scrapped it out of respect for the loss of the driver. With lots of stored stock, I think it's fair to say stock will be refurbished to replace the unfortunate power car and set. This is unless lack of passengers leads to dft cutting back services....

There was no pressure for HSTs at the time (some stored as I recall), so a replacement was available. Decisions will be taken by insurers, not by operators, and it will be on financial grounds - I'm afraid there is no concept of making decisions 'out of respect' in these situations.

 

[47271]

This is unless lack of passengers leads to dft cutting back services....

Lack of passengers may well be an issue, and traffic reduced accordingly, but DfT has no authority to determine service levels in Scotland.

 

[43096]

There was no pressure for HSTs at the time (some stored as I recall), so a replacement was available. Decisions will be taken by insurers, not by operators, and it will be on financial grounds - I'm afraid there is no concept of making decisions 'out of respect' in these situations.

There was a spare set off lease after Ufton Nervet (the former LA26) and MTU prototypes 43004/9 were effectively extras, all of which contributed to the decision to write-off the set and 43019. 43029 was also borderline but was authorised for repair.

 

[43096]

No chance of repair (except perhaps 43030). Look at ufton. 43019 could relatively easily have been repaired at a time when there were no spare HSTs knocking about, but FGW retired and scrapped it out of respect for the loss of the driver. With lots of stored stock, I think it's fair to say stock will be refurbished to replace the unfortunate power car and set. This is unless lack of passengers leads to dft cutting back services....
Probably more chance of the Pope denouncing Catholicism than there is of seeing say 43140 in service ever again.

43140 and at least three of the coaches would be write-offs even if they were one day out of the factory.

 

[43096]

This is surely the important point; the relevant question is "what is the cost of replacement versus the cost of repair?". (Note that this is arguably an oversimplification, as you want to amortize them over their remaining lifespan, and often the new option will have a longer lifespan.)

The cost of the vehicles is near scrap value (and the value of the destroyed vehicles will be near the same); to replace them you have the cost of getting some FoC to haul the replacement to Wabtec, to repair them you somehow have to get the destroyed vehicles to Wabtec which will near certainly be more expensive; then you have the cost of doing another refurb versus repairing, this is a more complicated question but I would be very unsurprised if doing another refurb was cheaper.

That said, depending on what TS foresees happening to the HSTs, the expected delivery date of a replacement set, and how quickly they get replaced under the new electrification scheme I wouldn't be totally unsurprised if no HST was procured to replace it.

Getting them to Wabtec? I’d expect at least some to be cut up on site.

As for replacements, the book value will not be nil for that set given the amount spent on it a few months ago. The stored vehicles may not necessarily be nil value, either. It depends on what Angel values them at.

 

[InvHst]

Grim viewing today on the network.
I can see one confirmed hst on the 1234 Inverness to Aberdeen diagram on a sunday.

1053 ex Inverness is a single 158 that was full and standing as a hst last weekend....

0929 ex Edinburgh another one that was a hst is a 170..

 

[Horatio G]

Grim viewing today on the network.
I can see one confirmed hst on the 1234 Inverness to Aberdeen diagram on a sunday.

1053 ex Inverness is a single 158 that was full and standing as a hst last weekend....

0929 ex Edinburgh another one that was a hst is a 170..

I got that feeling too; I was travelling on the Aberdeen - Inverness line on both the Thursday and Friday. On Thursday, boarded an HST at Huntly and crossed over two more on the way to Inverness. On Friday, went to board the same service and it was a 170 and all the crossing trains were 158s. Have Scotrail withdrawn the HSTs for a period? Is this a RAIB/HSE thing or do Scotrail think that folk won't want to travel on them anymore?

 

[scotraildriver]

They have not been withdrawn because of the incident, but because everything is massively messed up its easier to use units, as all crews can work them. The crew diagrams are in such a mess due to virtually nothing running as planned, worrying about who can/can't drive an HST just a adds to the issues.

 

[fishquinn]

A very limited number of high speed services are currently running - nothing out of Queen Street and just the Inverness ones out of Edinburgh (with some Perth-Inverness too). On weekdays the Highland Mainline stuff was still mostly HST but just out of Perth, however with the current line closures they apparently don't need to run the longer trains and apparently 1tph Dundee-Edinburgh is justified.

Any ideas how long Dunblane-Perth is going to be shut?

 

[scotraildriver]

Also there are lots of electric drivers who don't sign HSTs with little work due to the closure of the E & G. Using units means they can help out on diesel routes if required.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Also there are lots of electric drivers who don't sign HSTs with little work due to the closure of the E & G. Using units means they can help out on diesel routes if required.

Indeed. A service is better than no service.

 

[mcmad]

Also there are lots of electric drivers who don't sign HSTs with little work due to the closure of the E & G. Using units means they can help out on diesel routes if required.

Would they still have competency on 170's given the 385's have now been in service well over the 6 months?

 

[mcmad]

Any ideas how long Dunblane-Perth is going to be shut?

Believe it is planned for reopening tomorrow (Monday) subject to not finding any further damage.

 

[scotraildriver]

Would they still have competency on 170's given the 385's have now been in service well over the 6 months?

Yes. They still drive them.

 

[mcmad]

Interesting because one of the reasons previously given for not diverting via the sub during the works at Haymarket last Christmas was lack of drivers still with unit competancy

 

[fishquinn]

Believe it is planned for reopening tomorrow (Monday) subject to not finding any further damage.

That's great news, thanks for the update. Any idea as to what service they're planning to run (maybe the hourly Glasgow-Aberdeen train but turning around in Dundee or Montrose?) Thanks

 

[InOban]

ScotRail isn't giving a date for Dunblane to Perth. They suggest that Cowdenbeith to Glenrothes will open tomorrow.

 

[mcmad]

Believe that Dunblane - Perth repairs have been prioritised and proving run tonight, Cowdenbeath - Glenrothes likely to be midweek at best as further damage found.

 

[Speed43125]

Any ideas how long Dunblane-Perth is going to be shut?

66427 just passed north of Dunblane.

 

[InOban]

Delivery rescheduled for Monday

Realtime Trains - 562W 1321 Doncaster Works Wabtec to Haymarket Depot

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

On its way.

 

[InvHst]

On its way.

43139 + HA13 40613 42279 42280 42296 + 43177

 

[fishquinn]

66427 just passed north of Dunblane.

Great news, thanks - typed from somewhere around Gleneagles

 

[Speed43125]

Great news, thanks - typed from somewhere around Gleneagles

On an HST? I've seen two over about an hour this evening, so they seem to be taking back a couple of services