ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

kkong

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A ScotRail presentation to Tactran in Sep 2018 says that from Dec 2018 the plan was...

HST will operate 48 out of 99 intercity services:
  • 4 out of 22 Aberdeen – Inverness
  • 6 out of 22 Inverness – Edinburgh & Glasgow
  • 19 out of 24 Aberdeen – Edinburgh
  • 19 out of 31 Aberdeen – Glasgow
and from Dec 2019:
  • Most intercity services formed of High Speed Trains
 
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PG

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A ScotRail presentation to Tactran in Sep 2018 says that from Dec 2018 the plan was...
Given that ScotRail had only received the first completed set in September 2018 (so knew that things weren't going to plan) did they preface the presentation with 'Once upon a time' and conclude it with 'and they all lived happily ever after' !!??

Not strictly true, as there needs to be DMU operated passenger runs between Perth-Inverness and Montrose-Arbroath to rotate the 170s and 158s to the central belt without the need to run more empties.
While I can see that running empty Perth-Inverness is too far and a waste of limited single line capacity, Montrose-Arbroath is (just under) 14 miles.
I'd have thought it wouldn't be that difficult to find a path and adjust a few diagrams to enable a set swap that way instead of using a DMU vice a HST on the whole route?
 
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najaB

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I'd have thought it wouldn't be that difficult to find a path and adjust a few diagrams to enable a set swap that way instead of using a DMU vice a HST on the whole route?

I'm not sure if there are any Dundee/Arbroath terminators that could get to Montrose in time to form a Montrose-Aberdeen service (and vice versa) so it might be easier to just timetable it as Central Belt/Aberdeen.
 

47827

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There's a small number of early morning or late evening services that don't run south of Dundee or Perth on the Aberdeen route too that can remain units to allow swap over of 158s for the far north and Grampian/East Coast locals. As I recall in a similar conversation about the 05xx from Perth and 20xx ex Inverness southbound these sorts of trains can be left as they are with no likelihood of uproar about the lack of Intercity experience on board. 2 or 3 158s can form the services if needs be, or a single 158 to suit what needs moving for maintenance or fleet rotation purposes. I know one ECS hst goes to Perth overnight ex Glasgow due to depot capacity only (?) but the other terminators late at night and early morning starters are all currently dmu operated too from the likes of Perth and Dundee with no passenger hst sets stabling at these locations on a normal night so much better not having to run Highland Mainline dmu ECS moves to swap 158s around off the Far North routes or similar on the Aberdeen circuits. Waste of drivers and money when the off peak early/late services are perfectly good for that.
 

Clansman

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I admit I'd forgotten about that requirement, though I remember you mentioning it previously now. So at least one Inverness and one Aberdeen-Central Belt service each way will still be DMU then?
Indeed. So long as there are no additional empties penned in then it is essential that passenger services accomodate these rotations. The pre-covid planned timetable enhancements are impossible to maintain without them.

While I can see that running empty Perth-Inverness is too far and a waste of limited single line capacity, Montrose-Arbroath is (just under) 14 miles.
I'd have thought it wouldn't be that difficult to find a path and adjust a few diagrams to enable a set swap that way instead of using a DMU vice a HST on the whole route?
I'm not sure if there are any Dundee/Arbroath terminators that could get to Montrose in time to form a Montrose-Aberdeen service (and vice versa) so it might be easier to just timetable it as Central Belt/Aberdeen.
Strictly speaking, you don't need any additonal empties to rotate the DMU fleet and still maintain a full HST frequency on all end-to-end services between Aberdeen/Inverness and Glasgow/Edinburgh.

The key lies in 'end-to-end', and the following services have already been acting as de-facto (whilst not exclusively) rotationary movements for years, without disrupting the usual intercity formations:

1H01 Perth to Inverurie
1A43 Perth to Inverness
1L32 Aberdeen to Perth (terminates at Dundee on Saturdays)
1H25 Dundee to Inverness (starts at Montrose on Saturdays)

Allows up to 12 individual 158s, and 8 individual 170s to rotate daily Monday-Saturday. In my experience these almost always turn up as double 158s or 170+158 combos.

It's also worth noting 1A46 - Inverness to Stonehaven (weekdays only) - it's an ex-Elgin so will certainly serve the same purpose post full HST pre-covid timetable.

More than enough to sustain the rotations required without the logistical hassle of penning in more empties.

The size of Perth and Dundee's accomodation for stabling has always proved to be a blessing for planners, especially now with the HSTs and 385s thrown into the mix.

Edit: 47827 beat me to it!
 
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hexagon789

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Indeed. So long as there are no additional empties penned in then it is essential that passenger services accomodate these rotations. The pre-covid planned timetable enhancements are impossible to maintain without them.



Strictly speaking, you don't need any additonal empties to rotate the DMU fleet and still maintain a full HST frequency on all end-to-end services between Aberdeen/Inverness and Glasgow/Edinburgh.

The key lies in 'end-to-end', and the following services have already been acting as de-facto (whilst not exclusively) rotationary movements for years, without disrupting the usual intercity formations:

1H01 Perth to Inverurie
1A43 Perth to Inverness
1L32 Aberdeen to Perth (terminates at Dundee on Saturdays)
1H25 Dundee to Inverness (starts at Montrose on Saturdays)

Allows up to 12 individual 158s, and 8 individual 170s to rotate daily Monday-Saturday. In my experience these almost always turn up as double 158s or 170+158 combos.

It's also worth noting 1A46 - Inverness to Stonehaven (weekdays only) - it's an ex-Elgin so will certainly serve the same purpose post full HST pre-covid timetable.

More than enough to sustain the rotations required without the logistical hassle of penning in more empties.

The size of Perth and Dundee's accomodation for stabling has always proved to be a blessing for planners, especially now with the HSTs and 385s thrown into the mix.

Edit: 47827 beat me to it!
There's a small number of early morning or late evening services that don't run south of Dundee or Perth on the Aberdeen route too that can remain units to allow swap over of 158s for the far north and Grampian/East Coast locals. As I recall in a similar conversation about the 05xx from Perth and 20xx ex Inverness southbound these sorts of trains can be left as they are with no likelihood of uproar about the lack of Intercity experience on board. 2 or 3 158s can form the services if needs be, or a single 158 to suit what needs moving for maintenance or fleet rotation purposes. I know one ECS hst goes to Perth overnight ex Glasgow due to depot capacity only (?) but the other terminators late at night and early morning starters are all currently dmu operated too from the likes of Perth and Dundee with no passenger hst sets stabling at these locations on a normal night so much better not having to run Highland Mainline dmu ECS moves to swap 158s around off the Far North routes or similar on the Aberdeen circuits. Waste of drivers and money when the off peak early/late services are perfectly good for that.


So we are taking about the early morning non end-to-end working then?

Because that's actually what I meant earlier, just I didn't really convey that clearly, that the full distance services would be HST and the early morning/late night services short 'commuter' workings would be used to transfer units on and off certain routes such as the Aberdeen Crossrail and so forth
 

47827

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So we are taking about the early morning non end-to-end working then?

Because that's actually what I meant earlier, just I didn't really convey that clearly, that the full distance services would be HST and the early morning/late night services short 'commuter' workings would be used to transfer units on and off certain routes such as the Aberdeen Crossrail and so forth

Those services, for sure (although the last working from Inverness southbound does go South of Perth). Whether any others need to be added in would depend on hst availability/reliability, perhaps, and the fallout of the lost set from the summer derailment, which may not be replaced for a good while and potentially not with a hst if there were a pair of units that could be taken more quickly for instance. For those reasons it's possible at least one set of daytime services on either route will remain dmu operated, even if that wasn't the original intention. There are probably a few daytime workings on all 4 hst routes that are more lightly used and could get away without a hst capacity/facilities. Which route is chosen though remains to be seen. That also doesn't stop the common sight of at least 1 daily hst diagram being covered by a unit every day, which would vary depending on where the hst failure/shortfall was. In fact you can see days with 2 or 3 hst diagrams being fully covered by units. That wasn't rare in some fleets right across the decades in previous fleets (albeit in BR days up until the early 2000s loco hauled sets came out instead generally). Once 20+ sets are diagrammed wheeling the "spare" out often won't work when it's either miles away from the right location or on maintenance. That happens even now with near enough twice as many hst sets as is required some days.
 

InvHst

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Indeed. So long as there are no additional empties penned in then it is essential that passenger services accomodate these rotations. The pre-covid planned timetable enhancements are impossible to maintain without them.



Strictly speaking, you don't need any additonal empties to rotate the DMU fleet and still maintain a full HST frequency on all end-to-end services between Aberdeen/Inverness and Glasgow/Edinburgh.

The key lies in 'end-to-end', and the following services have already been acting as de-facto (whilst not exclusively) rotationary movements for years, without disrupting the usual intercity formations:

1H01 Perth to Inverurie
1A43 Perth to Inverness
1L32 Aberdeen to Perth (terminates at Dundee on Saturdays)
1H25 Dundee to Inverness (starts at Montrose on Saturdays)

Allows up to 12 individual 158s, and 8 individual 170s to rotate daily Monday-Saturday. In my experience these almost always turn up as double 158s or 170+158 combos.

It's also worth noting 1A46 - Inverness to Stonehaven (weekdays only) - it's an ex-Elgin so will certainly serve the same purpose post full HST pre-covid timetable.

More than enough to sustain the rotations required without the logistical hassle of penning in more empties.

The size of Perth and Dundee's accomodation for stabling has always proved to be a blessing for planners, especially now with the HSTs and 385s thrown into the mix.

Edit: 47827 beat me to it!

1a46 doesn't form off an Elgin anymore it forms of the 1407 Aberdeen arrival as the 1429 is a brand new set normally 2x158s
 

PG

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So we are taking about the early morning non end-to-end working then?

Because that's actually what I meant earlier, just I didn't really convey that clearly, that the full distance services would be HST and the early morning/late night services short 'commuter' workings would be used to transfer units on and off certain routes such as the Aberdeen Crossrail and so forth
I assume Aberdeen Crossrail is shorthand for the Montrose - Inverurie local stoppers and not some forthcoming new underground line through Aberdeen! :lol:
 

hexagon789

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I assume Aberdeen Crossrail is shorthand for the Montrose - Inverurie local stoppers and not some forthcoming new underground line through Aberdeen! :lol:
Yes! :lol:

(I thought it was at least a 'known' term for the service if not exactly oft-used.)
 
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Not sure about 2K01/2G02 and 2G13/2K14 but the old cardenden 68 diagrams appear to be down as HSTs at the December timetable change

Morning diagram:





Evening diagram:



 
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47827

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Much needed capacity for those services if usership rises again post Easter (or sooner) but a poor use of IC rolling stock that was brought in for other routes to offer an improved quality of journey for IC journeys. Imagine there will have to be at least a few extra IC services left as dmu stock to balance the use of a hst on at least 1 of the old loco hauled turns. The morning Fife set shown here narrowly misses being able to form the 0833 to Inverness too which comes off Haymarket But I fully recognise there are plenty of reasons that make tweaking things to merge the diagrams hard and what they are. The set off the Fife turn then appears to disappear to Haymarket for several hours.
 
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Much needed capacity for those services if usership rises again post Easter (or sooner) but a poor use of IC rolling stock that was brought in for other routes to offer an improved quality of journey for IC journeys. Imagine there will have to be at least a few extra IC services left as dmu stock to balance the use of a hst on at least 1 of the old loco hauled turns. The morning Fife set shown here narrowly misses being able to form the 0833 to Inverness too which comes off Haymarket But I fully recognise there are plenty of reasons that make tweaking things to merge the diagrams hard and what they are. The set off the Fife turn then appears to disappear to Haymarket for several hours.
Am I right in saying that with the reduction of 3 Edinburgh to Aberdeen and 2 Aberdeen to Edinburgh Scotrail services after the timetable change that this means there’s HSTs for services that no longer exist, hence why they’re being deployed on the old 68 diagrams? There’s also a reduction of 3 Inverness - Edinburgh SR diagrams and 1 less in the other direction, presumably freeing up even more sets for diagrams like the fife circle
 

47827

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Am I right in saying that with the reduction of 3 Edinburgh to Aberdeen and 2 Aberdeen to Edinburgh Scotrail services after the timetable change that this means there’s HSTs for services that no longer exist, hence why they’re being deployed on the old 68 diagrams? There’s also a reduction of 3 Inverness - Edinburgh SR diagrams and 1 less in the other direction, presumably freeing up even more sets for diagrams like the fife circle

You could well be right there. At present it doesn't matter even there was still to be a full timetable as there are a few sets yet to arrive and no intention of using all of them just yet. I'm thinking more into the realms of the post vaccine timetable if that's the best way of putting it. It's currently useful having up to 10+ hst sets a day if you wanted to stick them out on the Fife circle replacing the previous 68s in readiness for travel increasing again. What happens by the spring goodness knows. I recall for a number of weeks recently during the Aberdeen closure there was a hst that found its way onto the circle services for several hours on a Saturday, but that was a more temporary timetable and diagrams.
 

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