ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Highland37]

Why is it slipping?

 

[Highlandspring]

No sanders ( )

 

[AndrewE]

Why is it slipping?

Because they chose not to fit sanding gear?
(In this context, they failed to take account of known challenges to timekeeping and then to build in precautions to address them?)

 

[Class313:)]

lol. On a more serious note, its because as usual, the TOC didnt take into account all the possible problems you could have with chopping up a 40-year-old train and putting it back together again

 

[Carntyne]

lol. On a more serious note, its because as usual, the TOC didnt take into account all the possible problems you could have with chopping up a 40-year-old train and putting it back together again

Sounds more a problem with the engineers not delivering the promised product on time to the customer (the ROSCO / TOC), it's not SR fitting the doors.

 

[Class313:)]

SR still didnt take into account the possible problems with it...

 

[D365]

If ScotRail are given a specific date by Wabtec, it's Wabtec's responsibility to deliver to time.

 

[Clansman]

SR still didnt take into account the possible problems with it...

How do you know?

When anyone invests in a service, it's on the basis of a timetable devised by those undertaking the work, not the customer's assumptions.

Edit: @D365 beat me to it

 

[Class313:)]

Ok, so its WabTecs fault. It appears it is slipping because Wabtec didnt take into account all the possible problems with chopping up a 40-year old train and putting it back together again

 

[43096]

How do you know?

When anyone invests in a service, it's on the basis of a timetable devised by those undertaking the work, not the customer's assumptions.

Edit: @D365 beat me to it

And if your customer says we need it be x and you reply "But we anticipate there will be unseen problems which could delay delivery" and customer says "OK I'll go to contractor y instead", what do you do?

We also do not know the nature of the contract between Wabtec, Angel and ScotRail - is there provision in there for "unknown unknowns" (as Donald Rumsfeld called them)?

Don't forget that ScotRail are a "dumb" customer in this case - they have no knowledge of HSTs. I am anticipating problems after introduction as a result of this lack of knowledge.

 

[JohnR]

However, many in the industry warned about the chances of delays - even when the franchise was announced, it was felt by many to be an ambitious timescale to get the trains converted in time.

So what did ScotRail do about the warnings? Did they a) take them into account and build in some flexibility to their plans or b) ignore them?

 

[Highland37]

I don't think it's quite as absolute as people are making out.

Clearly Scotrail have knowledge of HSTs as not every employee stays with the same operator all the time and people move around. As an organisation, it doesn't, but members of staff will have knowledge which will add to the organisational knowledge.

A contractor is under no obligation to bid for a contract and sign one if they feel it is not deliverable. Straying off course is only going to cost them money so we can assume that parties to a contract are happy with the terms before it is signed. If it goes off piste later on, the issues will have to be dealt with by whoever is responsible for the issues that have caused the variation.

As far as I can see, absolutely no one on this thread can point to any definitive evidence of why things have gone slightly awry.

 

[SC318250]

You only need to look at the Class 318 refurbishment that was suppose to last 2 years... it took 4 years and 3 months to do

 

[AndrewE]

You only need to look at the Class 318 refurbishment that was suppose to last 2 years... it took 4 years and 3 months to do

for the fleet or the first one?

 

[mic505]

Lol. Whole fleet of 21 x 3-car. First one took 5 months.

 

[43096]

You only need to look at the Class 318 refurbishment that was suppose to last 2 years... it took 4 years and 3 months to do

Wabtec have a lot of previous with late deliveries and "unexpected issues". The Class 458/5 project is another example, where delivery of the first unit was 16 weeks late, which had slipped to 91 weeks late for the final set.

 

[brel york]

They try to avoid agreeing to any set date , no penalties on the angel 150 contract because how can you plan accurately when the major unknown is the corrosion Work , it’s why they take it on , smaller outfits shy away from it because when you find major problems such as happened on some 318 vehicles where the drag box thickness was down to 2mm in places and was supposed to be 12mm then the job stops because the issue is then the owners . It could be weeks before you get an answer but you still need to keep the welders on the books which costs money.The delay is getting their engineering people to underwrite a repair procedure,
Some of the 150s have had over 70% sole bar replacement .

 

[brel york]

I don't think it's quite as absolute as people are making out.

Clearly Scotrail have knowledge of HSTs as not every employee stays with the same operator all the time and people move around. As an organisation, it doesn't, but members of staff will have knowledge which will add to the organisational knowledge.

A contractor is under no obligation to bid for a contract and sign one if they feel it is not deliverable. Straying off course is only going to cost them money so we can assume that parties to a contract are happy with the terms before it is signed. If it goes off piste later on, the issues will have to be dealt with by whoever is responsible for the issues that have caused the variation.

As far as I can see, absolutely no one on this thread can point to any definitive evidence of why things have gone slightly awry.

There’s more than one issue , engineering issues , purchasing problems , shortage of experienced staff , underestimated amounts of corrosion
The doors themselves are pretty simple , it’s the interface with the train

 

[Class313:)]

stupid idea: would it be possible to use mk4s with HSTs once the Azumas enter service?

 

[route:oxford]

stupid idea: would it be possible to use mk4s with HSTs once the Azumas enter service?

Yes

It's just that they'd either need to be completely rewired to accept HST power or the HSTs need to be rebuilt with a hotel supply suitable for the Mk4s.

 

[59CosG95]

stupid idea: would it be possible to use mk4s with HSTs once the Azumas enter service?

Right. Are you sitting comfortably?
Then we'll begin.

The Mk3 stock used by HST rakes (i.e. coaches numbered in the 4xxxx series) are equipped without buffers at each end, and feature a 3-phase electrical supply for the "hotel power" (that is to say, onboard systems).
Conventional Mk3 loco-hauled stock (aka Mk3a/b etc.) has single-phase ETS, and buffers at each end of the vehicle (be it a coach or a DVT); the same applies for the Mk4 fleet.
Rewiring each Mk4 coach to take a new power supply would be incredibly prohibitive cost-wise, as every single millimetre of wire would have to be replaced. Likewise, rewiring the HST power cars to produce ETH that Mk4s can accept would also drive the cost up further still.

So, in echo of what @route:oxford said before I had the chance to finish:

Yes, if money and large quantities of man-hours are no object...which basically implies no.

 

[AndrewE]

Yes

It's just that they'd either need to be completely rewired to accept HST power or the HSTs need to be rebuilt with a hotel supply suitable for the Mk4s.

Not stupid at all, apart from the fact that each pair of power cars comes with a perfectly good set of coaches! on power compatibility, I'm still impressed by the way that all sorts of electric power - from regen braking or from a wind turbine - can be taken, rectified, turned back into AC synchronised and put into the grid or the OLE.
"HST [power car I assume] Rebuilt" - or just the alternator (or whatever) adapted to provide a different or additional output - or even just the hotel supply fed into a new bit of gubbins to provide the right number of phases and voltage? Why not? It doesn't need the whole train altering, and what have the buffers got to do with it anyway? When in a fixed-formation rake using the buckeye they are irrelevant. Sad that so many people even here have so little faith in our engineers!

 

[D365]

tl;dr: the Mk4s are more difficult to modify for HST use than keeping the Mk3s.

 

[brel york]

It didn’t take that long to convert the loco hauled mk3a vehicles to run with hst power cars , I remember working on them

 

[Darandio]

It didn’t take that long to convert the loco hauled mk3a vehicles to run with hst power cars , I remember working on them

Really? As recent discussion is about delays, i'm pretty sure the conversion work was delayed as well.

 

[D365]

It didn’t take that long to convert the loco hauled mk3a vehicles to run with hst power cars , I remember working on them

The Mk4s are quite different though?

 

[brel york]

I realise that and it always comes down to cost

 

[brel york]

Really? As recent discussion is about delays, i'm pretty sure the conversion work was delayed as well.

Sorry I mean when the loco hauled stock was converted in 2008 to make the first 3 xcountry hst sets

 

[Class313:)]

OK...getting mixed responses. So would it be more expensive to adapt HST powers for use with mk4s, or to refurb Mk3s to 2020 accessibility standards

 

[brel york]

Converting mk3 is easier ( lol but judging by the performance so far I’m not sure )