ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Aictos]

But the wide Mk4 vestibules seem to attract people sitting in them, which makes access difficult and makes people think a train is full and standing when there are often seats available.

In the peaks, there is often no where to sit so the vestibule is the only place to sit/stand on the Mk4s that's how busy they can be, off peak though it's not too bad but in the peaks getting a seat is like playing the lottery!

 

[Highlandspring]

Discussion of mk4 coaches is irrelevant. In the absence of ‘news’ this thread has moved into the realms of fantasy.

 

[najaB]

Back to the HSTs though, when they do enter passenger service and I know they're intended for the Seven Cities services BUT could a set be diagrammed to replace the existing Mk2 Fife service as part of their working day

They could, but it's more likely that they'd use one or two of DMUs freed up by the arrival of HSTs.

 

[The_Engineer]

Discussion of mk4 coaches is irrelevant. In the absence of ‘news’ this thread has moved into the realms of fantasy.

Indeed. There is already a thread for this kind of speculation - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/disposal-of-ic225s.135520/

 

[Wst71Pa2]

I wouldn't think adding a complicated & potentially troublesome bit of electrical kit to the HST is something that Scotrail would look to undertake! The 415v 3 phase solution was chosen for the production HST (I believe the prototype HST had the standard loco ETH fitted) with good reason - it is reliable, simple (it takes the train supply directly from the alternator) & has stood the test of time well.
Fitting an ETH generator in a power car seems like a needless, time consuming & expensive waste - much more so than modifying Mk3 trailers, which are designed to work with HST power cars anyway!

Not sure the ratings on the the wiring looms, 3phase v 1000v DC, but it did cross my mind that while the coaches were gutted out, it would have been at that point they could have been wired for both. So when the power cars are binned a 68 can be strapped to the front.

 

[jingsmonty]

I disagree, yes the Mk3s are probably cleared for more routes then the Mk4s however the vestibules of the Mk3s are small and claustrophobic, the Mk4s are far more spacious because while I detest the HSTs from Kings Cross because it feels so cramp in their vestibules I never have the same issue with the Mk4s unless it's full and standing.

And before anyone says but you can always use the seats, the majority of the time when I used to travel Kings Cross to Peterborough or Stevenage to Peterborough, I didn't see the point in using a seat as was far more comfortable just sitting by the doors and besides 45 mins is nothing.

Back to the HSTs though, when they do enter passenger service and I know they're intended for the Seven Cities services BUT could a set be diagrammed to replace the existing Mk2 Fife service as part of their working day ie Set A works Edinburgh to Aberdeen then works a service to Edinburgh before doing a trip around the Fife Circle before working a Edinburgh to Inverness or is that beyond the realms of Scotrail and Network Rail?

I, personally, don't see the relevance in Mk3s having a 'cramped vestibule'...most passengers would rather travel in the coach..
Mk4s have a cramped interior (tilt profile) & badly aligned seats (to windows)-I'd agree that a mk4 may ride better at ECML speeds, but that's irrelevant for Scotrail routes.

To be honest, this whole 'Mk3 v Mk4' is irrelevant & a bit tedious....It isn't ever going to happen on Scotrail.

 

[jingsmonty]

Not sure the ratings on the the wiring looms, 3phase v 1000v DC, but it did cross my mind that while the coaches were gutted out, it would have been at that point they could have been wired for both. So when the power cars are binned a 68 can be strapped to the front.

It's more than a case of rewiring - Mk3a/b loco hauled coaches have buffers, different couplers & extra electrical equipment (motor alternator sets, I think they're called?). Tg2ey are different coaches, once you get below solebar level!
The power cars have plenty more life left in then yet & I wouldn't imagine a Class 68 wouldn't have the performance of a 2+4/5 HST set anyway

 

[TheMuttley]

Back to the HSTs though, when they do enter passenger service and I know they're intended for the Seven Cities services BUT could a set be diagrammed to replace the existing Mk2 Fife service as part of their working day ie Set A works Edinburgh to Aberdeen then works a service to Edinburgh before doing a trip around the Fife Circle before working a Edinburgh to Inverness or is that beyond the realms of Scotrail and Network Rail?

I was wondering about this too but then I realised that one of the benefits of contracting it out to use old Mk2 stock, as they do, is that it allows for a burst in capacity during peak periods - I, for one, always prefer to get a seat on one of the old (or smelly, or dated etc... [insert other criticism of old rolling stock]) Mk2 coaches than stand, crammed in on the 158s/170s. Or, rather, as tends to be the reality, I should say that I prefer to stand with more room on the Mk2 coaches, than stand crammed in on the DMUs. If that was to be achieved by diverting an HST or two, that would simply shift the shortage to the intercity stock, would it not?

 

[kylemore]

Fair enough, maybe they are getting their comms wrong, but I even if they did fall over themselves with updates all they'd get is indifference from the public and a burst of negative headlines. But you're quite right, it would be the decent thing to do.

I'm probably not the best contributor to this section of the thread since, as I said above, I'm really not fussed until such time as I'm personally inconvenienced by the delays to the programme, and in that sense I'm probably representative of 95% of the travelling public. The inadequacy of current Scotrail stock has been with us for near on 30 years one way or another and isn't something that's been caused by holdups to the HSTs.

That's a good point - the mistakes we're living with today were made in the 1980/90s!

 

[Rail Blues]

Hahaha

Folks will be riding round on hover boards first.

 

[ScottDarg]

2 ScotRail power cars (43149 & 140) are currently working 0V84 from Brush to Laira: https://flic.kr/p/MRq6ff

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R41193/2018/08/10/advanced

 

[Stoney1979]

2 ScotRail power cars (43149 & 140) are currently working 0V84 from Brush to Laira: https://flic.kr/p/MRq6ff

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R41193/2018/08/10/advanced

Can I ask why they might be doing that re their eventual introduction in Scotland?

Sorry, I'm new here and I don't understand the ins and outs of such movements (having had to look up where Brush and Laira are.....).

 

[route101]

I disagree, yes the Mk3s are probably cleared for more routes then the Mk4s however the vestibules of the Mk3s are small and claustrophobic, the Mk4s are far more spacious because while I detest the HSTs from Kings Cross because it feels so cramp in their vestibules I never have the same issue with the Mk4s unless it's full and standing.

And before anyone says but you can always use the seats, the majority of the time when I used to travel Kings Cross to Peterborough or Stevenage to Peterborough, I didn't see the point in using a seat as was far more comfortable just sitting by the doors and besides 45 mins is nothing.

Back to the HSTs though, when they do enter passenger service and I know they're intended for the Seven Cities services BUT could a set be diagrammed to replace the existing Mk2 Fife service as part of their working day ie Set A works Edinburgh to Aberdeen then works a service to Edinburgh before doing a trip around the Fife Circle before working a Edinburgh to Inverness or is that beyond the realms of Scotrail and Network Rail?

Will see them ECS between Edinburgh and Glasgow, though i doubt in service

 

[mde]

Can I ask why they might be doing that re their eventual introduction in Scotland?

Sorry, I'm new here and I don't understand the ins and outs of such movements (having had to look up where Brush and Laira are.....).

ScotRail on Twitter claim it's for heavy maintenance.

 

[Stoney1979]

ScotRail on Twitter claim it's for heavy maintenance.

Thanks. Heh heh, back-to-back Scotail HST power cars wandering around Devon just about sums up how the project is going....

 

[Far north 37]

ScotRail on Twitter claim it's for heavy maintenance.

Maybe power cars not handed over in the agreed condition per the franchise.

 

[43096]

43149 was almost due its G exam when it transferred. As ScotRail say it is due heavy maintenance it may well be Laira are doing the G - possibly down to a lack of capacity at Craigentinny.

 

[scotraildriver]

This is it. Some maintenance is bring outsourced as there is no rush for more power cars - we've got loads! It's coaches we need............

 

[Highlandspring]

I’ve seen (as have no doubt many other internal viewers) a photo today from Wabtec showing the first 2+4 set completed, formed up with powercars and undergoing final pre-delivery inspection.

 

[The_Engineer]

Indeed...….. delivery due??

 

[jingsmonty]

Indeed...….. delivery due??View attachment 50904

Looking good, in my humble opinion!

 

[InOban]

Do we know when this picture was taken? After all, the set appeared outside a couple of weeks ago, and was apparently scheduled for delivery, but then went inside again, presumably having failed its PDI. Last time I checked, there wasn't a delivery path in RTT.

 

[gsnedders]

Do we know when this picture was taken? After all, the set appeared outside a couple of weeks ago, and was apparently scheduled for delivery, but then went inside again, presumably having failed its PDI. Last time I checked, there wasn't a delivery path in RTT.

What's a PDI?

 

[gingertom]

What's a PDI?

Pre Delivery Inspection

 

[ld0595]

What's a PDI?

Pre Delivery Inspection

EDIT: Beaten to it!

 

[jingsmonty]

Hopefully the PDI will be completed & we get the refurbished rake in Scotland...to illustrate how badly these trains are needed, I was on an Aberdeen to Glasgow QS Class 170 a few days ago...fairly busy, but the train had to be terminated at Perth as the set had no working toilets!

 

[Highland37]

Agreed. On the 170 back north yesterday, it was packed (1209 from Queen Street) with tourists from all over the world plus about half from Scotland. I was next to a German lady who was shocked to see only three carriages, a dirty train, old seats and how small the train was overall. Very little can be done about the latter but the 50-6-mph crawl up Drumochter will be much better with the HSTs I hope.

Can they go much faster though for the 10 miles north of Blair Atholl?

 

[scotraildriver]

The performance of these trains is fabulous compared to a 170. On the training runs out of Queen St the HST is doing 100mph just after Bishopbriggs whereas a 170 takes until roughly half way between Lenzie and Croy to hit the ton.

 

[gingertom]

The performance of these trains is fabulous compared to a 170. On the training runs out of Queen St the HST is doing 100mph just after Bishopbriggs whereas a 170 takes until roughly half way between Lenzie and Croy to hit the ton.

how do they cope with Queen street tunnel?

 

[jingsmonty]

The performance of these trains is fabulous compared to a 170. On the training runs out of Queen St the HST is doing 100mph just after Bishopbriggs whereas a 170 takes until roughly half way between Lenzie and Croy to hit the ton.

I can definetly vouch for that as well! When leaving Inverness, a 170/158 will be doing 50/55mph on the climb up to Culloden Moor - an HST will do 80mph (line speed) easily, without even having to maintain full power...the performance of the HST will be a game-changer! Likewise, from Culloden Moor to Moy, a 170/158 will do about 55/60 - the HST will maintain the 75mph line speed with ease. The fuel usage of the HST will not be as bad as some doomsayers think either - a DMU will be on full throttle the whole way to Moy (about 16/17mins), whereas the HST will be throttling back (and even coasting) for a lot of this time (whilst maintaining line speed, which a 170/158 would never be able to do).