ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[jingsmonty]

The maintenance staff in Inverness certainly seem to be on top of things...it takes time, though - you are spot on when you talk about the 'intricacies of the power cars' - we will be finding out all the quirks with them as we use them more & more.

Also, the GWR fleet wasn't modernised to the same degree as the other operators did...

I also wonder just how much work GWR would have done on these power cars that they knew were going to Scotrail - i would suspect it would be the bare minimum.....there's already been a power car up in Inverness that had duff batteries...

 

[CC 72100]

I'm guessing that you won't know, but surely the answer to that would be either (a) re-install the switch; or (b) re-label it with a very prominent label.

Items being mislabellled, such as cab controls and switches and isolation cocks, or installed "the wrong way round" in the first place are pretty common; this is definitely not exclusive to these power cars!

 

[47271]

I wasn't quite sure where else to post this. Luckily I was on the super early service southbound yesterday so was unaware of the issue until I read it in the P&J.

170s aren't allowed on the HML with an engine out so there's probably no new concern, but we really don't want power cars flaking out like this on a regular basis.

So will the 4/5 car sets be able to continue over the hills with just one power car?

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands/1540295/dozens-of-rail-passengers-on-inverness-to-london-train-left-stranded/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=PJ Daily Newsletter 2018-08-14&utm_term=Press and Journal - Newsletter

Dozens of rail passengers on Inverness to London train left stranded on ‘nightmare’ rail journey

Dozens of rail passengers on the early morning London train from Inverness were left stranded yesterday after it broke down shortly after leaving the Highland capital.

The main engine car of the 7.55am LNER train bound for Kings Cross lost power between Kingussie and Dalwhinnie just after 9am yesterday.

Passengers were taken to Kingussie Station where they were told their tickets would be accepted on ScotRail services travelling south.

However, many were unable to board the first service to arrive because of a lack of space and were forced to remain at Kingussie until after 11am for the next train.

Journalist Michelle Henderson, who was on the first day of her holidays, said: “The whole journey has been a nightmare. A three-and-a-half hour trip to Edinburgh has turned into a six a half hour journey from hell.

“No-one had a clue what was going on.

“There was not enough room on the first train, leaving around 30 to 50 people still stuck at Kingussie.

“Once the next train arrived dozens of passengers were still left standing for hours due to the lack of space.”

An LNER spokesman said: “Due to a fault on the train, the 7.55 Inverness to Kings Cross was terminated at Kingussie. We apologise for the disruption this caused to customers travelling this morning.”

He said the fault was in relation to the power car, adding: “We agreed ticket acceptance with Scotrail so passengers could continue their journey from Kingussie on the next service.

“As far as we’re aware, the majority of customers did make it onto the following ScotRail service.”

A spokesman for Network Rail said: “There was a failure to the power supply to the train at 9.05am. The line was blocked for a short period, causing brief delays to other services.

“The train was moved off the main line shortly afterwards and services soon got back to normal.”

A ScotRail spokesman said: “An LNER service broke down at Kingussie, which meant that we could only use one platform there. As a result a number of services between Inverness and the Central Belt were delayed.”

He said that once the train was cleared off the main line there were no further delays.

 

[kje7812]

I believe it was said earlier in this thread that 4/5 car HST would be able to carry on if one of the power cars failed.

 

[Northhighland]

Could a spare GWR power car not have been used to get the LNER train to Edinburgh?

 

[47271]

I believe it was said earlier in this thread that 4/5 car HST would be able to carry on if one of the power cars failed.

Excellent, sorry if I missed that amongst 2855 posts.

 

[najaB]

A 2+9 HST is allowed to leave Inverness on one power car as long as it has a clear run to Slochd. If it comes to a stand for any reason it has to return to Inverness

There's no reason to think that a 2+5 wouldn't be similarly capable.

 

[47271]

A 2+9 HST is allowed to leave Inverness on one power car as long as it has a clear run to Slochd. If it comes to a stand for any reason it has to return to Inverness

There's no reason to think that a 2+5 wouldn't be similarly capable.

Well, that's what I thought. So loss of a power car at Kingussie shouldn't be terminal even with 2+9, the climb to Drumochter isn't that onerous from Speyside.

 

[Alfie1014]

I wasn't quite sure where else to post this. Luckily I was on the super early service southbound yesterday so was unaware of the issue until I read it in the P&J.

170s aren't allowed on the HML with an engine out so there's probably no new concern, but we really don't want power cars flaking out like this on a regular basis.

So will the 4/5 car sets be able to continue over the hills with just one power car?

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands/1540295/dozens-of-rail-passengers-on-inverness-to-london-train-left-stranded/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=PJ Daily Newsletter 2018-08-14&utm_term=Press and Journal - Newsletter

Seems that the LNER (diesel) fleet is suffering at the moment, (see thread on service cancellations), was on the down Cheftain a week ago today which terminated at Perth due to the failure of 43238 NRM 40. Bizarrely when we returned from Scotland on Saturday 43238 was on the rear of the 09:52 ex Aberdeen, luckily on this occasion it was working fine and our later arrival in the Cross was due to a late running proceeding service. Any one know which power cars were involved in the Kingussie incident?

 

[BRX]

Well, that's what I thought. So loss of a power car at Kingussie shouldn't be terminal even with 2+9, the climb to Drumochter isn't that onerous from Speyside.

From the P&J article it sounded like maybe it was train power that had been lost, rather than the engine?

 

[alexf380]

Any one know which power cars were involved in the Kingussie incident?

According to the scot-rail gen site it was 43320+43310 that ran that service. 310 appears to have been the culprit.

 

[Highlandspring]

From the P&J article it sounded like maybe it was train power that had been lost, rather than the engine?

It was a loss of traction power, it got stuck on the climb between Kingussie and Dalwhinnie, so had to return to the former.

 

[47271]

It was a loss of traction power, it got stuck on the climb between Kingussie and Dalwhinnie, so had to return to the former.

I see, so the climb from Kingussuie to Drumochter is quite onerous then!

 

[RLBH]

I see, so the climb from Kingussuie to Drumochter is quite onerous then!

Not as bad as Slochd or as Blair Atholl to Drumochter, but it's still 18 miles of mostly 1 in 100 with a ruling gradient of 1 in 80 for about 2.5 miles after Dalwhinnie.

 

[jingsmonty]

I wasn't quite sure where else to post this. Luckily I was on the super early service southbound yesterday so was unaware of the issue until I read it in the P&J.

170s aren't allowed on the HML with an engine out so there's probably no new concern, but we really don't want power cars flaking out like this on a regular basis.

So will the 4/5 car sets be able to continue over the hills with just one power car?

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands/1540295/dozens-of-rail-passengers-on-inverness-to-london-train-left-stranded/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=PJ Daily Newsletter 2018-08-14&utm_term=Press and Journal - Newsletter

I had a 170 north from Perth with only 2 engines working (out of 3)....I've never seen anything written down about 170s not being allowed on HML with an engine out! I would imagine that one wouldn't be allowed to depart in that condition at the start of a journey, though.

I've also had to take a 4 car 158 North from Perth with 2 engines (& 2 idling)...very long journey up to Drumochter at 30mph!!

Think the training train went North a few weeks ago on 1 power car...still managed to maintain line speed 'up the hill' to Drumochter (I wasn't on it, so can't vouch for this).

The only prohibition to running on 1 power car was, I believe, with Valenta engined power cars (this was, obviously, before the days of short formed sets too), but there aren't any Valenta engined Poeer cars lect now (apart from the prototype, 41001)

 

[Highlandspring]

I've never seen anything written down about 170s not being allowed on HML with an engine out!

That’s because there’s no such prohibition.​

 

[jingsmonty]

That’s because there’s no such prohibition.​

My thoughts exactly - sure my DTM would have had a chat with me otherwise!

 

[najaB]

It was a loss of traction power, it got stuck on the climb between Kingussie and Dalwhinnie, so had to return to the former.

Do you know if it was adhesion problems, as I would've thought there would be enough power available.

 

[43096]

The only prohibition to running on 1 power car was, I believe, with Valenta engined power cars (this was, obviously, before the days of short formed sets too), but there aren't any Valenta engined Poeer cars lect now (apart from the prototype, 41001)

I assume this is only in the latter days of Valentas when they had stopped maintaining them?

 

[D1009]

The Devon banks are much steeper but shorter. A 2+8 set is allowed to proceed on one power car provided it does not call at Totnes and has a clear run, also there are no temporary speed restrictions. I don't think there are restrictions on 2+7 or shorter formations, and the sole 2+4 set when fully operational has to reduce power when climbing the 1 in 41 of Hemerdon to avoid exceeding the 80 mph line speed, so I very much doubt that a 2+5 set on one power car would have any real difficulty getting to Inverness, though it would lose time.

 

[ld0595]

There appears to be a working tomorrow from Doncaster to Craigentinny. Are we finally seeing delivery of the first completed set?

 

[najaB]

There appears to be a working tomorrow from Doncaster to Craigentinny. Are we finally seeing delivery of the first completed set?

Interesting that it's timed for 110mph max - is there a limit on short HSTs?

 

[sde426]

Interesting that it's timed for 110mph max - is there a limit on short HSTs?

I thought that interesting too. Have the power cars been re-geared to 110 mph for Scotrail service?

 

[47271]

I had a 170 north from Perth with only 2 engines working (out of 3)....I've never seen anything written down about 170s not being allowed on HML with an engine out! I would imagine that one wouldn't be allowed to depart in that condition at the start of a journey, though.

I've also had to take a 4 car 158 North from Perth with 2 engines (& 2 idling)...very long journey up to Drumochter at 30mph!!

Think the training train went North a few weeks ago on 1 power car...still managed to maintain line speed 'up the hill' to Drumochter (I wasn't on it, so can't vouch for this).

The only prohibition to running on 1 power car was, I believe, with Valenta engined power cars (this was, obviously, before the days of short formed sets too), but there aren't any Valenta engined Poeer cars lect now (apart from the prototype, 41001)

Just to be clear on what I'm saying here. In around eight years I've never left Perth northbound in a single 170 with only two motors, and I've made that journey hundreds of times. Either we've been cancelled and had to get on another unit, or (typically) the 1741 Edinburgh-Inverness gets combined with the 1811 from Queen Street. Maybe 'allowed' wasn't quite the right word, and I don't want to contradict a member of Scotrail staff who of course knows what the rules are, I'm just going by my own experience.

 

[D1009]

I thought that interesting too. Have the power cars been re-geared to 110 mph for Scotrail service?

Very little should be read in to what speed a train is timed for, particularly on a delivery run, if that is what it is.

 

[43096]

Have the power cars been re-geared to 110 mph for Scotrail service?

No, they haven’t.

 

[najaB]

Very little should be read in to what speed a train is timed for...

Except they are timed for slower than the other traffic around them. Just found that interesting.

 

[scotraildriver]

There is certainly nothing in the training course relating to any restrictions on 1 power car, including leaving Queen St.

 

[Northhighland]

Just to be clear on what I'm saying here. In around eight years I've never left Perth northbound in a single 170 with only two motors, and I've made that journey hundreds of times. Either we've been cancelled and had to get on another unit, or (typically) the 1741 Edinburgh-Inverness gets combined with the 1811 from Queen Street. Maybe 'allowed' wasn't quite the right word, and I don't want to contradict a member of Scotrail staff who of course knows what the rules are, I'm just going by my own experience.

Arrived back from Edinburgh tonight in a 170. We were in at 5:10 15 mins late and the excuse was an engine failure. We were on time at Perth.

 

[InOban]

Hasn't moved yet... Here's hoping that it's not failed its inspection again.